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Why is Ash not "allowed" to win?

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Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
AAs a statistical fact, the Japan local view rate of Pokemon anime going down each successive year. That already says a lot.

The only ones that are contented about the status quo of Pokemon anime is merely the staffs that makes and promote the show.

And despite this supposed "decline," Pokemon merchandise in Japan still flies off the shelves. Seriously, kids in general have no problem with Ash's lack of official League wins; only an older part of the fandom - who are way outside the anime's target demographic anyway - seem obsessed with that stuff. :x
 

Kymbo

omlette du fromage
Think about it this way: (Unfortunately) The Pokemon anime is targeted mainly to children age 10+. When (or if) you first started playing the games, were you any good? Probably not. As we all know Ash is a timeless character and they don't seem to want to create a new protagonist, so Ash is what we have. He's still young(ish?), and he's not going to win because he's not supposed to be the best. He's not Lance, or Steven or Alder or Cynthia, he's not the champion. The anime is about taking those losses and growing stronger because of them, making those mistakes and then fixing them, and treating Pokemon as teammates; not tools. It's not a tail about the champion and how they came to be. It's about a young boy with a dream of becoming the master, who's (apparently in Pokemon logic) gonna have to keep making and learning from the same mistakes along the way. Ash Ketchum can't always win. I really wish the writers would take that confident step forward and freshen up the script, but we don't know if they will or not. Who knows. This XY saga is something special; there's been many traditions broken and there's new writers this time around, so the possibility of a league win may just be within our reach. ^-^
 

Mew2

Team Rocket's Enemy
Think about it this way: (Unfortunately) The Pokemon anime is targeted mainly to children age 10+. When (or if) you first started playing the games, were you any good? Probably not. As we all know Ash is a timeless character and they don't seem to want to create a new protagonist, so Ash is what we have. He's still young(ish?), and he's not going to win because he's not supposed to be the best. He's not Lance, or Steven or Alder or Cynthia, he's not the champion. The anime is about taking those losses and growing stronger because of them, making those mistakes and then fixing them, and treating Pokemon as teammates; not tools. It's not a tail about the champion and how they came to be. It's about a young boy with a dream of becoming the master, who's (apparently in Pokemon logic) gonna have to keep making and learning from the same mistakes along the way. Ash Ketchum can't always win. I really wish the writers would take that confident step forward and freshen up the script, but we don't know if they will or not. Who knows. This XY saga is something special; there's been many traditions broken and there's new writers this time around, so the possibility of a league win may just be within our reach. ^-^

But in a way, the problem is that Ash doesn't really grow stronger, not since DP ended and Best Wishes began at least. There were few of these complaints until Best Wishes had him regress. And I would venture to say that a lot of kids actually do beat the game on their first go through. The difficulty is getting to the Elite Four and the Champions in the first place. Ash should have trouble against the gyms, which he does at times, but learn from those mistakes and carry them through to the league, where he should win or least do better than previous leagues. That did not happen in Best Wishes, and that's why so many people want Ash to either leave or to win this time around. There would not have been the issue if there wasn't that "reboot" of Best Wishes and Ash had either gotten Top 4 again or even Top 2. That didn't happen, though, so the viewers are worried that Ash will be the eternal loser, always getting close but never quite getting there, mostly because of his own mistake of never taking his best overall team to the league, which I think is another issue. Hopefully, we will finally see a League win. I don't need Ash to beat Diantha or any of the Elite Four (save for Malva at least, but that won't likely be in an official Elite Four battle), just for him to win a league and get that huge monkey off his back. If that happens, most of the complaints people have about Ash will stop.
 

SerenaForTheWin

Yusarin >_<
one simple answer would be once he wins a league that might also mean his dream of becoming a pokemon master has been officially achieved since pkmn master's definition was said to win at least a tournament/league - they try to not let ash win so he can continue travelling more regions and meet up with new pokemons and adventures that he had yet to discover
 

Ilikepiex7

Well-Known Member
one simple answer would be once he wins a league that might also mean his dream of becoming a pokemon master has been officially achieved since pkmn master's definition was said to win at least a tournament/league - they try to not let ash win so he can continue travelling more regions and meet up with new pokemons and adventures that he had yet to discover

winning the pokemon league just allows a trainer to challenge the champion league. The champion league thing was first mentioned in d/p.
 

Sephora

yes I'm back
I've always wondered that, too. I mean his journey doesn't have to end after he wins a league. There are still much more steps to take in order to be a Master, like the Champion League for example. Plus Ash can still collect badges and compete in other leagues; one win does not prevent him from doing that.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
And despite this supposed "decline," Pokemon merchandise in Japan still flies off the shelves. Seriously, kids in general have no problem with Ash's lack of official League wins; only an older part of the fandom - who are way outside the anime's target demographic anyway - seem obsessed with that stuff. :x

The sale of Pokémon merchandise has more to do with the popularity of the games than it does with the anime. And I hate to break it to you, but most Japanese kids I've talked to actually agree with the notion that Satoshi should win a League, because he needs to grow up as at some point. Their words, not mine. So to put that matter to rest once and for all, they do care. Otherwise, so many of them wouldn't have said that.


I've always wondered that, too. I mean his journey doesn't have to end after he wins a league. There are still much more steps to take in order to be a Master, like the Champion League for example. Plus Ash can still collect badges and compete in other leagues; one win does not prevent him from doing that.

Exactly. But those concepts can't be explored unless the show is willing to take that step with Ash.

So many people are like 'Oh, it'll end if Ash wins a League', or 'Oh, he'll have no reason to keep going' (facepalm). A friend of mine gave me the second line, and I could tell by his expression that he realized how stupid it sounded after he said it.

In reality, it's the exact opposite. If Ash won a League, his character would grow, and he would essentially advance to the next level, something that I think should have happened YEARS ago. There has yet to be one good solid reason on this entire topic why Ash winning a League would be a bad idea, but there is every reason for it being a good thing. It would advance the plot, advance his character, he would grow up, and it would escalate things to the next level. You know, the way a properly written story is done.
 
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CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
Ash should have won the Hoenn league or Sinnoh at the latest. I can understand him losing the Indigo and Johto leagues.

The fact that Ash conquered the Battle Frontier right after shows Ash winning a league and going on to the next challenge makes sense.
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
I've always wondered that, too. I mean his journey doesn't have to end after he wins a league. There are still much more steps to take in order to be a Master, like the Champion League for example. Plus Ash can still collect badges and compete in other leagues; one win does not prevent him from doing that.

But if him winning a League wouldn't end his story or progress his dream much, what would be the point of him winning one then? If he just repeats his pattern and collects badges all over again afterwards, I don't see what him winning a League would even accomplish. :c
 

Sephora

yes I'm back
But if him winning a League wouldn't end his story or progress his dream much, what would be the point of him winning one then? If he just repeats his pattern and collects badges all over again afterwards, I don't see what him winning a League would even accomplish. :c

His dream would definitely progress of course, but I meant that he can still collect badges if that is a factor the writers don't want to change. I mean I figured that was a reason why the writers wouldn't have him to win a league - so he can still travel to new regions from the games and collect badges.
If he were to win (as unlikely as that is, just imagine), then personally I wouldn't want him to go back to step one and collect badges. But if that's what the writers want, then I don't see how him winning a league would prevent him from continuing. That's why I am confused why it is taking him so long to win a league. Get what I mean lol?
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Ash should have won the Hoenn league or Sinnoh at the latest. I can understand him losing the Indigo and Johto leagues.

The fact that Ash conquered the Battle Frontier right after shows Ash winning a league and going on to the next challenge makes sense.

I think it should have happened at Sinnoh, personally. There isn't really any mechanical reason for it. I just felt that the time was right during that League. I think a lot of people did.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
I think it should have happened at Sinnoh, personally. There isn't really any mechanical reason for it. I just felt that the time was right during that League. I think a lot of people did.

Well DP of course. He probably should have made it to the finals in the Hoenn league and then won the DP one. Ignoring Best Wishes, Ash really was improving as a trainer with each passing saga. He was better in AG than he was in Johto, and he was better in DP than he was in AG. Best Wishes regressed him, but XY seems to put him inbetween his Hoenn and DP self.
 

Emperor Empoleon

Honor of Kalos
They went out of their way to give us some world building with the Champion's League after Regionals in DP, so its not like they can't give him more to accomplish.

And the main games will always provide source material for new challenges like Battle Frontier and other facilities. There's plenty they could work with if they really wanted to.
 
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Crystal

The Pokemon Observer
In reality, it's the exact opposite. If Ash won a League, his character would grow, and he would essentially advance to the next level, something that I think should have happened YEARS ago. There has yet to be one good solid reason on this entire topic why Ash winning a League would be a bad idea, but there is every reason for it being a good thing. It would advance the plot, advance his character, he would grow up, and it would escalate things to the next level. You know, the way a properly written story is done.

Sometimes (no, MANY TIMES) I wondered, does the staffs that creates the Pokemon anime even forget the basics of story-writing, where such literature knowledges should had taught to everyone in primary and high school language classes.

Especially for scenario writers, they must have such knowledges in order to qualified as one and to participate in such job.

Though I do know that scenario writers may not have the authority to alter the decision of the director board which they are the ones having most of the power to determine the route of the entire anime, but still, shouldn't the staffs in the director board at least be educated up to high school level? How come they aren't questioning anything about the story plot of the Pokemon anime?

Or is it that? Because Pokemon anime is a business, hence the financial performance is the first priority out of everything, which can even stupefy the heads of every staff that works in there up to the point of forgetting the basics knowledges and general perceptions of good story writing?
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Sometimes (no, MANY TIMES) I wondered, does the staffs that creates the Pokemon anime even forget the basics of story-writing, where such literature knowledges should had taught to everyone in primary and high school language classes.

Especially for scenario writers, they must have such knowledges in order to qualified as one and to participate in such job.

Though I do know that scenario writers may not have the authority to alter the decision of the director board which they are the ones having most of the power to determine the route of the entire anime, but still, shouldn't the staffs in the director board at least be educated up to high school level? How come they aren't questioning anything about the story plot of the Pokemon anime?

Or is it that? Because Pokemon anime is a business, hence the financial performance is the first priority out of everything, which can even stupefy the heads of every staff that works in there up to the point of forgetting the basics knowledges and general perceptions of good story writing?

What I do know is that the anime has undergone constant changes to the writing staff over the years (and I think that even some of the higher ups changed too). So that could factor into things on the mechanical side.

But the thing is, even with that a good writer could advance the characters and storyline to the next level, have Ash win a League, while still maintaining a status quo. This has been done successfully in hundreds of other shows (they made Twilight Sparkle a Princess, for example, and FiM kept its status quo). But instead, they choose not to. They choose to tell the same story over and over again. It stays the same, it's predictable, it's boring. That's in a nutshell what the anime is right now.
 
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Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
They went out of their way to give us some world building with the Champion's League after Regionals in DP, so its not like they can't give him more to accomplish.

The Champion League was mentioned like seven years ago during DP; I don't think it's relevant to Ash's advancement in XY tbh. It was probably just world building like you said or perhaps a canceled plot point like the GS Ball, in which case I don't see it being brought up again in the current saga anyway.
 

Ilikepiex7

Well-Known Member
The Champion League was mentioned like seven years ago during DP; I don't think it's relevant to Ash's advancement in XY tbh. It was probably just world building like you said or perhaps a canceled plot point like the GS Ball, in which case I don't see it being brought up again in the current saga anyway.

they also mentioned it a couple times in b/w so the writers likely still remember it
 
#1) So they can make more money and continue to prolong the Anime indefinitely until the games end- it's a cash cow.

#2) They know Ash is too iconic to the Series and they can get more viewers by keeping him than replacing him with a protagonist that actually wins major competitions frequently and becomes a "Master" because unfortunately Ash has too many fans.

But the thing is, even with that a good writer could advance the characters and storyline to the next level, have Ash win a League, while still maintaining a status quo. This has been done successfully in hundreds of other shows (they made Twilight Sparkle a Princess, for example, and FiM kept its status quo). But instead, they choose not to. They choose to tell the same story over and over again. It stays the same, it's predictable, it's boring. That's in a nutshell what the anime is right now.
^This is exactly it, more or less.^
 
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Torus333

Fakemon Artist
#1) So they can make more money and continue to prolong the Anime indefinitely until the games end- it's a cash cow.

#2) They know Ash is too iconic to the Series and they can get more viewers by keeping him than replacing him with a protagonist that actually wins major competitions frequently and becomes a "Master" because unfortunately Ash has too many fans.

s.^

Soooo true, its somewhat sad but at the same time alright..
 
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