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Why is Ash not "allowed" to win?

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They choose to tell the same story over and over again. It stays the same, it's predictable, it's boring. That's in a nutshell what the anime is right now.

Yes, that's right, but even if you're telling still the same story, you can do these same things extraordinary in many ways. Not only the story, but also the content is important - I mean, try to take a look to the Sinnoh region... Even though it's still the same story, they've managed to do it enjoyable (not to mention there were the most exciting battles I've ever seen in the Pokémon anime - even league was best handled in my opinion). Then we've got Unova, where only good thing were Team Rocket... Then Kalos, where we can see good start to the whole story, even though we probably know how it ends. Satoshi is forced to use strategy in every battle, even in the first gym battle against Violla - I have high expectations of the entire series. Also character's development is also far away Unova and different in compare to Sinnoh as well (Serena hadn't/hasn't any goals, in contrast Hikari already had her dream)...

As regards the league, I don't care about League's results, I only want to see memorable battles of strategies, and not only in the Leagues, but also in usual battles or gym battles... Yeah, I also like sophistication, and I probably would never be able to understand, how they could to make Kalos League so terrible - not only with battles itselfs, but eg. the start of league... A couple of ridiculously shots simulating fireworks in Kalos, that was step back for me in compared to Sinnoh, but that's an aspect where not all would agree and it's rather point of view / preferences.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Yes, that's right, but even if you're telling still the same story, you can do these same things extraordinary in many ways. Not only the story, but also the content is important - I mean, try to take a look to the Sinnoh region... Even though it's still the same story, they've managed to do it enjoyable (not to mention there were the most exciting battles I've ever seen in the Pokémon anime - even league was best handled in my opinion). Then we've got Unova, where only good thing were Team Rocket... Then Kalos, where we can see good start to the whole story, even though we probably know how it ends. Satoshi is forced to use strategy in every battle, even in the first gym battle against Violla - I have high expectations of the entire series. Also character's development is also far away Unova and different in compare to Sinnoh as well (Serena hadn't/hasn't any goals, in contrast Hikari already had her dream)...

As regards the league, I don't care about League's results, I only want to see memorable battles of strategies, and not only in the Leagues, but also in usual battles or gym battles... Yeah, I also like sophistication, and I probably would never be able to understand, how they could to make Kalos League so terrible - not only with battles itselfs, but eg. the start of league... A couple of ridiculously shots simulating fireworks in Kalos, that was step back for me in compared to Sinnoh, but that's an aspect where not all would agree and it's rather point of view / preferences.

By that logic though, the League is completely pointless. If Ash is never going to win, then they might as well not bother with it and focus on some other plotline that they can develop instead.
 

Lionel

Active Member
Oh suck it up. The Pokemon anime is obviously not targeted towards you 'mature' people who wants more realism and 'adult values' out of the anime, so just quit watching, stick with the games, and stop posting all these anime-hating threads altogether. Problem solved, Internet saved, and we could all go back home without all these whining.

Then again, this is the Internet, so who am I kidding?
 

SerenaForTheWin

Yusarin >_<
Oh suck it up. The Pokemon anime is obviously not targeted towards you 'mature' people who wants more realism and 'adult values' out of the anime, so just quit watching, stick with the games, and stop posting all these anime-hating threads altogether. Problem solved, Internet saved, and we could all go back home without all these whining.

Then again, this is the Internet, so who am I kidding?

seriously who is the one hating the pokemon is going right now -_-

not me I think the way their tackling the episodes are fine, I'm probably still going to root Ash not winning the league ( because this is a cycle that never stops)
 

Benny™

Best Wishes Do Come True Under The Sun & Moon
Oh suck it up. The Pokemon anime is obviously not targeted towards you 'mature' people who wants more realism and 'adult values' out of the anime, so just quit watching, stick with the games, and stop posting all these anime-hating threads altogether.

Name me ONE person who said they wanted this anime to be more "adult" or "realistic" or "mature".

Exactly.

Labeling every opinion you don't agree with as 'whining', making up arguments, and trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do makes you look like a moron. People have brought up some valid points and all you do is try to discredit them. If you like the anime how it is now that's fine, but other people don't and want improvements.

All you've done here is talk **** about the English dubs and glorify the Japanese versions, and you say OTHER PEOPLE should stop whining? Hypocrite.

Problem solved, Internet saved, and we could all go back home without all these whining.

Then again, this is the Internet, so who am I kidding?

Look who's talking...
 
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They want more money, and they'll do anything to get it, even if it means flanderizing Ash and Team Rocket as well as running whatever positive traits they once had into the ground until they are not even recognizable as the characters they once were (which, I would say is true as of XY), not to mention a plethora of other things I'll state below.

The proof lies in:

- Ash never aging and that he's 10 for life.
- Other characters never aging as well besides Ash, like Brock (15), Misty (10), Max (8), Dawn (10), May (10), etc.
- How Ash has never won a Regional Pokemon League after 15+ years of real life have elapsed.
- How Team Rocket have yet to catch a single Pikachu after 15+ years of real life have elapsed.
- The dub companies switching because TPCi wanted to save money in order to spend less on producing the English dub, and so they hired amateurs in voice acting, script writing, and random people to write and compose songs with little to no credits in that regarding, replacing experienced voice actors with many credits to their names, people who had actually written scripts that were not full of slang, jive, or people trying to be hip and failing miserably at it before, and similarly same goes for the musicians.
- The constant replacing of other main characters that are protagonists besides Ash every 3 to 4 years with someone else.
- Treating the female heroines as "eyecandy" for the male audience to sexualize and look at.
- Takeshi Shudo, the Original Writer of the Anime, leaving the Series as a writer after an early episode of the last Arc of Johto for good because of his dissatisfaction with the way the writers in Japan were prolonging the length of the Anime and how he realized it would never end and it more or less lost whatever factors there were to it being anything more than a commercial for the games altogether at that point.
- The fact that the show is never-ending, repetitive, formulaic, and predictable in many regards as a result of constantly rehashing what was seen before, only in slightly different ways.

It's really very sad, honestly, but it's a crushing reality: the Pokemon Anime is in almost every respect a complete shell of its former self, and joke, compared to what it once was, and it is going nowhere altogether at this point- it will not end until the games stop being produced.
 
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They want more money, and they'll do anything to get it, even if it means flanderizing Ash and Team Rocket as well as running whatever positive traits they once had into the ground until they are not even recognizable as the characters they once were (which, I would say is true as of XY), not to mention a plethora of other things I'll state below.

Yes, the Pokemon franchise is here to produce money. Just like literally every other TV Series/Anime/Cartoon/Video game in existence. It is a bussiness that is meant to bring in currency, nobody can disagree with this and there is nothing wrong with it either, its just the world we live in.

The proof lies in:

- Ash never aging and that he's 10 for life.
- Other characters never aging as well besides Ash, like Brock (15), Misty (10), Max (8), Dawn (10), May (10), etc.
- How Ash has never won a Regional Pokemon League after 15+ years of real life have elapsed.
- How Team Rocket have yet to catch a single Pikachu after 15+ years of real life have elapsed.
- The dub companies switching because TPCi wanted to save money in order to spend less on producing the English dub, and so they hired amateurs in voice acting, script writing, and random people to write and compose songs with little to no credits in that regarding, replacing experienced voice actors with many credits to their names, people who had actually written scripts that were not full of slang, jive, or people trying to be hip and failing miserably at it before, and similarly same goes for the musicians.

It seems like you are antagonizing two different people here. The individuals responsible for producing the English dub and the individuals responsible for the actual production are two different groups. From the jist of it I can gather you are upset with a) the repetitive nature of the series and b) the voice acting switch. Your first point is valid, it's fair to be upset with something like this and I agree that in many ways characters have been flanderized.

Your second point is something many people bring up but only do so with a tremendous amount of axiomatic nostalgia(which is a very strong type of bias). Yes, when the original voice actors were changed the show was unbearable. The issue I have is that it has they have dramatically improved from that time, the "new"(quotations because they have been voicing the anime for a long time now) have caught up. Ash actually sounds good now and pokemon voices aren't utter crap. People need to let go of this, the new dub is fine.


- Treating the female heroines as "eyecandy" for the male audience to sexualize and look at.

I don't see a problem with this.

- Takeshi Shudo, the Original Writer of the Anime, leaving the Series as a writer after an early episode of the last Arc of Johto for good because of his dissatisfaction with the way the writers in Japan were prolonging the length of the Anime and how he realized it would never end and it more or less lost whatever factors there were to it being anything more than a commercial for the games altogether at that point.

Oh nostalgic bias, when will you **** off?

Look, things change. You are entitled to your opinion and if you don't like the way newer writers are doing their job nobody is making you watch, but to discredit them simply because they are not "the original" is ridiculously unfair. Just because something is new doesn't make it bad and just because something is original doesn't make it good. Personally, I don't see how so many people can look back on the anime's original series and say "omg this was so much better." maybe it had an advantage in some aspects but it also had very clear drawbacks as well.

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."


- The fact that the show is never-ending, repetitive, formulaic, and predictable in many regards as a result of constantly rehashing what was seen before, only in slightly different ways.

What happened the last time the writers tried to add something new to the anime? Oh yeah people people became angered because one character got replaced.


This is for you and anyone else who strongly believes the original series was vastly superior to the AG-onwards series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_retrospection
 
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pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
Not wanting to interfere in this discussion, but some things i felt should be addressed.

Yes, the Pokemon franchise is here to produce money. Just like literally every other TV Series/Anime/Cartoon/Video game in existence. It is a bussiness that is meant to bring in currency, nobody can disagree with this and there is nothing wrong with it either, its just the world we live in.

I think you missed the point in here. You can have both franchise generating big incomes of money, but also putting more efort and incentive of giving to audience product of higher quality.

Because going by standards of solid writing, pokemon earns low score. As anime known for repetitiveness, stagnation of character development, very bad continuity most of time forgetting about previous important characters, events and growth like it was done for nothing. Losing its identity and substance that way.

I don't see a problem with this.

Well i guess we all have our opinions on this.

But if you ask me such approach toward female protagonists in pokemon series is disrespectful and sexist, giving out message how their own hopes, dreams, personalities, backstories, established relationships with others and goals ultimately dont matter.

How any impact they left on show, Ash, progression of story (be it Misty, May, Dawn, Iris etc)was in vain and irrelevant. Since their primary purpose was to just serve as shallow piece of fanservice in writer eyes.

Fact how once main girl is replaced she never comesback again falling in oblivion(Misty is living proof). How her story remains unfinished and potential to be done much more in terms of development unused. Potential which is hindered because of new eye candy needing to step into scene , rather than keeping established one who has pokemon, experience, developed characterization and relations with others to go through deeper, more profined growth as sequel to started story in going on bigger things further reinforces sad truth about whole thing.

Serving as nothing more than fill up, token girl to help promote some generation before you get rid of her falling down in oblivion, in favor of next one rinse and repeat.

Oh nostalgic bias, when will you **** off?

Look, things change. You are entitled to your opinion and if you don't like the way newer writers are doing their job nobody is making you watch, but to discredit them simply because they are not "the original" is ridiculously unfair. Just because something is new doesn't make it bad and just because something is original doesn't make it good. Personally, I don't see how so many people can look back on the anime's original series and say "omg this was so much better." maybe it had an advantage in some aspects but it also had very clear drawbacks as well.

"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."

Appeal to novelty! have flaws in itself jut as much as Appeal to tradition!

This can work both ways. Change isnt always good, and something new doesnt mean it will make some product or show automatically better. It could also very well be step for worse decreasing level of enjoyment, excitement and integrity of some series.

This depends largely on personal beliefs and criteria of what can be considered eventful, creative, well structured and inspring storyline and progression of its characters.

But ill just say how direction in which pokemon anime has went over the years isn't something to be especially proud of.

Especially when it comes to main protagonist treatment; Ash,. Being stuck in enchanted cycle of tries and fails. Never seeing writers having courage and motivation to push his storyline on next brink. Use accumulated knowledge and experience to its own advantage in overcoming more complex, tougher challenges on road of becoming pokemon master. With first step toward bringing more innovation to Ash story lying in winning league, so that requirements to go on next step are fulfilled(like E4, champion, other topugher tasks and quests to obtain like Battle Frontier was etc). Feeling like all those years of pain, struggles, training and trying are leading toward something.

Because thats basis of good storytelling. To have introduction, entanglement, culmination which never bappens with anyone in pokemon and eventually denuaement.

But of course there are other problems this show suffers from as well. Such as overused ideas with little to no variation, abandonment of past and its history making it seem like each new journey through new generation of anime is set in different continuity. Rather than being treated as on going show which had plot which builds on itself, keep ties to past, its protagonists and built plotlines going forward. Basically show treated as one big adventure following Ash and his friends over long period of time.

Not to mention if someone prefers Original series over new ones, that doesn't necessarily mean its out of nostalgia reasons. People can have contrary to some belief valid reasoning barely or if at all influenced by clouded bias toward something which may have been part of their childhood.

Simply preferring different style of writing, humor, characters which came from that era, arguably more emotion packed and full of variety expressions chemistry between protagonists, pokemon, fact that anime payed less attention to games trying to treat it more as its own individual story etc.

There is nothing wrong with that. Depending on personal taste and what someone looks from TV series to have in delivering memorable and gratifying experience. Each series had their flaws and highlights.
 
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tommytoe

Well-Known Member
Because if Ash won a League it could lead to character development and a lasting effect on the character outside of the region it occurred in and the anime hates that sort of thing.
 
Because the writers need to come up with a reason for him to challenge the league of the next region that get's made.
 

Vale_Star

Shiny Huntress
If Ash wins, the series is over and done with. Like how American audiences hate previous realicrap show winners coming back on others for greed and because the studios want people to be pissed off. I stopped watching/caring about the dubs after Veronica Taylor, Rachel Lillis, and Eric Stewart left. Yeah I saw the Hoenn and Sinnoh dubs with whoever the new voice people were, didn't like. So I stick with the subbed ones. I'll give the Japanese one prop though, they remain consistant with their voice actors. How many shows has Ikoue Otani (Pikachu's Japanese voice actress) done now? The Unova arcs and the Kalos ones so far have the same actor doing Satoshi.
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
If Ash wins, the series is over and done with. Like how American audiences hate previous realicrap show winners coming back on others for greed and because the studios want people to be pissed off. I stopped watching/caring about the dubs after Veronica Taylor, Rachel Lillis, and Eric Stewart left. Yeah I saw the Hoenn and Sinnoh dubs with whoever the new voice people were, didn't like. So I stick with the subbed ones. I'll give the Japanese one prop though, they remain consistant with their voice actors. How many shows has Ikoue Otani (Pikachu's Japanese voice actress) done now? The Unova arcs and the Kalos ones so far have the same actor doing Satoshi.
Winning a League=/=Pokemon Master. Hell it doesn't even mean regional champion. Elite 4? Champions League? Becoming an actual Regional Champion? Ash winning a League wouldn't mean anything as to whether the show would end. They could easily have him win the Kalos League then get wrecked by Malva.
 

Vale_Star

Shiny Huntress
He never gets that far though, yes he meets the Elite Four from some regions but never faces them. That would be something I would actually like to see him do at least once. After nearly 20 years of the anime it's long past due. Makes me wonder what would happen if he actually did get all the way to a regional Champion, would it make a decent show if he was going all the way back to Kanto get the rest of the first 151 Pokemon? Would anyone watch shows about him tracking down those Pokemon or any for that matter? I probably should have said the JOURNEYING part of the series would be over and done with.
 

Janovy

Banned
He never gets that far though, yes he meets the Elite Four from some regions but never faces them.
Technically Ash has battled several Elite 4 members so far.
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
He never gets that far though, yes he meets the Elite Four from some regions but never faces them. That would be something I would actually like to see him do at least once. After nearly 20 years of the anime it's long past due. Makes me wonder what would happen if he actually did get all the way to a regional Champion, would it make a decent show if he was going all the way back to Kanto get the rest of the first 151 Pokemon? Would anyone watch shows about him tracking down those Pokemon or any for that matter? I probably should have said the JOURNEYING part of the series would be over and done with.
He's faced four Elite Four members. He gave Agatha and Bertha a good fight and got wrecked by Flint and Drake though the latter battle might have been more favorable for Ash if he didn't let his over-confidence get in his way.
 

Vale_Star

Shiny Huntress
They weren't league matches though, that's what I meant. Those were off the books ones.
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
They weren't league matches though, that's what I meant. Those were off the books ones.

All of which he lost anyway, hence why I have no desire to see him win a League; he'd almost certainly lose against the Elite Four in full battles imo and I'm not here for that tbh. :x
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
They weren't league matches though, that's what I meant. Those were off the books ones.
Well he needs to win a League then. Though looking at his League progress from an in-universe perspective I'll say this. He was far too green to win Kanto and Johto, Hoenn was feasible and he made Top 8 without rotations (which must have been exhausting on his team) and he might have on the whole thing had he used smart team rotation, Sinnoh was his best shot but he unluckily faced someone on E4 level, and the Unova League was just a mess.
 

Vale_Star

Shiny Huntress
Sixth times the charm?
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
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