Why is Ash not "allowed" to win?

[Red and Blue]

The XY anime's ending will conincide with the 20th anniversary of the anime. Perfect time to wrap up Ash's story.

I doubt they will wrap up his story then. He is the mascot of the anime afterall. Who else is going to promote Gen 7 and onward?

 

[CyberCubed]

I doubt they will wrap up his story then. He is the mascot of the anime afterall. Who else is going to promote Gen 7 and onward?

Maybe finally using the male lead from the games for once?

 

[Red and Blue]

Maybe finally using the male lead from the games for once?

Unlikely. Regardless of how I feel about him, Ash is definitely here to stay.

 

[Lord Trollbias]

Maybe finally using the male lead from the games for once?

Then they'd just have to dump said ge lead at the end of each generation. If people thought Ash's "lack" of progression that'd just seem even worse and IMO more formulaic. If Ash gets written off I'd rather a new non-game protagonist takes over

 

[Blood Red]

I'd be amazed if Ash won this or any other league. The "lose at the League, hit the reset button on the next region, lather, rinse, repeat" formula has worked for 17 years so change it now? I'd like to see Ash actually succeed for once but the Tobias BS in Sinnoh league pretty much killed whatever slim hope I had of Ash ever wining a region championship.

Actually, that formula finally cracked and fell apart. I think the writers are very careful, since they know they're walking on eggshells here

 

[CyberCubed]

Unlikely. Regardless of how I feel about him, Ash is definitely here to stay.

I doubt he'll be here. The Pokemon franchise will run as long as Nintendo remains in business which will be forever, however the anime will probably either end before that or do a full reboot with new heroes.

Also I don't see how having a new male hero will be any different than sitting through a new female lead every gen.

 

[Red and Blue]

I doubt he'll be here. The Pokemon franchise will run as long as Nintendo remains in business which will be forever, however the anime will probably either end before that or do a full reboot with new heroes.

Also I don't see how having a new male hero will be any different than sitting through a new female lead every gen.

Maybe they will do a reboot in the future, but it's a bit too early now. The point is that Ash isn't going anywhere anytime soon


Having a new male hero would be different since the females were never the main characters.

 

[CyberCubed]

Maybe they will do a reboot in the future, but it's a bit too early now. The point is that Ash isn't going anywhere anytime soon


Having a new male hero would be different since the females were never the main characters.

Too early? The reason they kept Ash for Hoenn is because back then it was "too early" for Ash to be axed as the anime had only been going on for 5 years. By the time DP ended it was 13 years and that could have been his sendoff. The BW reboot proved keeping Ash is pointless, and XY seems to be trying to repair the damage to Ash's character but what would keeping him past this serve?

I've never heard of anyone saying a character who had a 20 year run being "too early" to leave.

 

[Red and Blue]

Well, for the sake of discussion, say he actually wins the Kalos league. Rather than him doing the same thing he has been doing, what if he takes the next step towards becoming a pokemon master? Winning one league doesn't mean you automatically become one. I'm just saying that there are plenty of ways to keep him around even if he wins the Kalos league

 

[Lorde]

I'm just trying to be hopeful. After all, Ash is doing a better job this time around and it looks like he can win this league if he actually tries. After that, someone else could continue his legacy of perpetual failure.

He did way better in AG and DP by this point than he's doing in XY though imo, and he obviously didn't win the regional Leagues back then. Also, it's not a matter of Ash "trying" to win one; he's not in charge of his actions since he's a fictional character and all.

 

[Bahmo]

Ash can't win because we need to teach the kiddies that it's okay to lose.

"We"? Who's "we"? Moral guardians somehow depending on a cynical game-based cash grab to impart values? Anime writers who touch on that so rarely that it's fruitless to assume they'll have an effect? Game companies whose business model is based on people's desire to go up against adversity and win? Game writers who make self-agrandizement the highest goal time and time again? Parents who actually see that as an important lesson?

You aren't the first person who's made this point, and I think it's just as bogus as before. "It's okay to lose" is only a sensible lesson if someone gains/realizes he has something else more important than winning. If Ash was to decide "even though I lost, the important thing is that I bonded with my friends", that would be fine. If he was to resolve "I lost, but with this amount of training, I'm in the running for next year", that would be fine. Neither happens. Ash just dumps his friends; both human and Pokemon, deliberately nerfs himself, and then goes right on back to being obsessed with winning and being a big-shot. There is no valid lesson about humility to be had there.

Then they'd just have to dump said ge lead at the end of each generation. If people thought Ash's "lack" of progression that'd just seem even worse and IMO more formulaic. If Ash gets written off I'd rather a new non-game protagonist takes over

That sounds logical, but it kind of presumes many viewers stay on for the long haul anyway. I sure didn't. People may not like to watch a new guy go through the same style of character arc each new generation, but assuming the formula itself is going to tire them out, it seems reasonable to let each generation of viewers at least end on a high note rather than quitting with a bad taste in their mouths.

Yet if in fact, people want to keep watching because, I don't know; maybe they want to watch the newest cat-based Pokemon do cute things or see Korrina in high definition kicking things, my idea is they can cycle things; get the cast to switch out slowly rather than all at once. Similar to how MST3K did it. First, Joel Hodgson moved on and Mike Nelson stepped in, but the other guys were still there, and the formula remained. Then Frank Conif moved on, then Trace Beliu, and gradually Kevin Murphy, Bill Corbett and Mary Jo Pehl supplanted them. The feel of the show stayed. Pokemon Chronicles gave people stories without Ash, and it worked because the core anime had done enough to endear other characters to people. Sending Ash off would certainly be a jolt to some, but if the others are well-received, they can carry on the plot and hold interest. Virtually nobody begins watching this anime because Ash is interesting to them, so why should his departure make them drop it?

 

[k6666]

The XY anime's ending will conincide with the 20th anniversary of the anime. Perfect time to wrap up Ash's story.

wow idk about that
if that happen , hope he get good send off
but right now i cant see it
since ash have pikachu and pikachu are pokemon mascot so
sadly he need to stay

 

[tommytoe]

The feel of the show stayed. Pokemon Chronicles gave people stories without Ash, and it worked because the core anime had done enough to endear other characters to people. Sending Ash off would certainly be a jolt to some, but if the others are well-received, they can carry on the plot and hold interest. Virtually nobody begins watching this anime because Ash is interesting to them, so why should his departure make them drop it?

I wouldn't mind Ash getting axed from the show. Ash's friends get dumped whenever a new region is made and so why not the Ash himself as well? I doubt it will happen anytime soon though, if ever. Given how much people freak out over relatively minor things like Team Rocket growing beyond comedic punching bags for the Best Wishes series or Misty getting the boot after Johto replacing the main character might well cause enough ill will to cause the show to be canceled.

Actually, that formula finally cracked and fell apart. I think the writers are very careful, since they know they're walking on eggshells here

Did it? I thought they were still having Ash drop back to brainless newbie at the start of each region.

 

[CyberCubed]

s or Misty getting the boot after Johto replacing the main character might well cause enough ill will to cause the show to be canceled.

You do realize the only people who go on about Misty are a vocal minority of nostalgic fanboys or shippers, right? The reason the writers never had to bring Misty back is because in reality the majority of the fandom moved on from her very quickly, and May quickly became popular shortly after Hoenn began. Its like the same type of people who only like the original 151 pokemon and refuse to play any of the newer games.

As you said, most older fans would want Ash to have a conclusion rather than see him go on forever. In fact everyone would have liked DP to be Ash's last saga at the latest.

 

[Bahmo]

wow idk about that
if that happen , hope he get good send off
but right now i cant see it
since ash have pikachu and pikachu are pokemon mascot so
sadly he need to stay

As noted, that's a concern, but I'd argue the anime isn't really the best venue to display Pikachu in anyway, because when Pikachu is in the anime, either he has to get held back by Ash because he's too strong to make many new battles feel like a challenge, or he gets nerfed to make them challenging. The one thing he's still used for is fighting off Team Rocket, but in the form it takes, he's less a hero and more a MacGuffin. Pikachu being in the anime drags him through the mud because it forces bad writing. On the other hand, when you make a spin-off title with Pikachu as an abstract concept; instead of specifically that Pikachu, there's no burden of past development to create plotholes or a need to hold back; Pikachu there can still come off as the star of the Pokemon series, whereas in the anime, he's just an object grandfathered in.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

You do realize the only people who go on about Misty are a vocal minority of nostalgic fanboys or shippers, right? The reason the writers never had to bring Misty back is because in reality the majority of the fandom moved on from her very quickly, and May quickly became popular shortly after Hoenn began. Its like the same type of people who only like the original 151 pokemon and refuse to play any of the newer games.

As you said, most older fans would want Ash to have a conclusion rather than see him go on forever. In fact everyone would have liked DP to be Ash's last saga at the latest.

Just because you chosen to believe this to be true does not make it truth.

I would consider it vocal minority if it was same group of people.
But when i see over the years so many various, different people sharing same consensus over and over again, when many new members which join sites expressing same type of disappointment over said character replacement, unfinished siory and appeal she brought to anime being gone is indication how this may not be just simple coincidence. But number being much higher than some would expect to be.

At leasts thats how i see it.

Member who brought up removal of Ash traveling companions made very good point.


If someone with smaller importance to pokemon anime and lower iconic value than main protagonist of this anime holds could lift up so much dust and damage to anime popularity.
Than consequences behind Ash removal shouldn't be took recklessly either.

Especially when Ash were talking about became so much ingrained in main series with his pokemon partner Pikachu. That this two are main face and driving force of pokemon series with Ash name becoming synonim for this media.

Highly recognizable and affiliated with pokemon anime character who represents hero to all potential young viewers, iconic figure inseparable from pokemon thanks to familiarity established on global basis. Thus having reliable and proven way in generating excitement, strong marketing push they can make through such character and stability Ash existence brings to pokemon series,.

Neddless to say reason behind large number of older fans from OS, AG, DP etc even sticking to pokemon anime anymore is Ash story, continuing quest in becoming pokemon master and unmask all secrets and mysteries introduced and never brought to conclusion about this character. Wanting to see how it will end along with rest of replaced companions stories, goals and flaws hoping to see them come to daylight again.

Take Ash out and your effectively bringing everything in risk of pokemon show collapsing and going down through spiral faster than its already the case with decline uts facing with each new generation.

Not because Ash is still main character. But because of poor writing, stagnation of plot, disrespect toward past, popular replaced characters who are left abandoned with their unresolved dreams and plots and no definable direction through which it could be dormed impression how universe and story is moving forward which drags with everything for two decades already.

 

[CyberCubed]

If Ash's story wrapped up at the end of DP and they allowed him to win a league and challenge the Elite 4 I doubt anyone would have cared. We had 13 years of Ash at that point and he was at his best.

Brock constantly returning and people being sick of him is proof people don't want the same characters. Same for Team Rocket, people have found them tiring since...DP...or even AG before that.

I wouldn't even have cared if Ash actually ended at the end of Johto, assuming he was written better and such. I don't watch TV shows with no endings, I would have much prefered Ash be done away with long ago.

 

[Bahmo]

wow idk about that
if that happen , hope he get good send off
but right now i cant see it
since ash have pikachu and pikachu are pokemon mascot so
sadly he need to stay

As noted, that's a concern, but I'd argue the anime isn't really the best venue to display Pikachu in anyway, because when Pikachu is in the anime, either he has to get held back by Ash because he's too strong to make many new battles feel like a challenge, or he gets nerfed to make them challenging. The one thing he's still used for is fighting off Team Rocket, but in the form it takes, he's less a hero and more a MacGuffin. Pikachu being in the anime drags him through the mud because it forces bad writing. On the other hand, when you make a spin-off title with Pikachu as an abstract concept; instead of specifically that Pikachu, there's no burden of past development to create plotholes or a need to hold back; Pikachu there can still come off as the star of the Pokemon series, whereas in the anime, he's just an object grandfathered in.

Did it? I thought they were still having Ash drop back to brainless newbie at the start of each region.

While I haven't seen much of the post-Johto anime, my understanding is that Ash seeming completely mind-wiped didn't happen until the Best Wishes series. Hence, what I think Blood Red was alluding to is that now, the writers have no idea how to make the show compelling again without being allowed to think outside the box, and are more or less shooting in the dark.

From what I have gathered, the writers of Best Wishes were trying to take the show in a bold new direction that hopefully brought back some of the luster the old episodes had while catering to new sensibilities; making Ash feel fresh, making Team Rocket feel more like genuine villains instead of annoyances, and making the companions gym leaders instead of avatars. The problem is that within this series' oppressive episodic, anti-continuity mindset, writers can pull that sort of overhaul off without any regard to how things developed to that point, and that they did made the old fans mad. I have no idea why the old fans were even still there, but that's besides the point; the point is that there were always tensions between the show's original watchers and the influx of plebes recruited each new generation; the former feeling like they were screwed over in favor of the latter, and doing something that drastic just ignited them.

So come XY; lo and behold, they try something else; they move Team Rocket back to being inept comic relief, presumably as a bone to the old fans (assuming they actually liked Team Rocket as comic relief), but again with no explanation why they just changed course all at once, and apparently are now making the battles more exciting and Ash look tougher, which, as alluded to upthread, is likely just to piss people off extra hard when they betray anticipations.

The TLDR is that the writers have realized they need to do something to make this series good, but they're surrounded on all sides by things antithetical to good. They've been burdened on one side by game plots that center around the bland goal of being the best at something that doesn't really exist, and on the other the stigma against actually accomplishing this because they think Ash needs to stay in, on one side the need to add some good-vs-evil element to provide genuine tension, and on the other inheriting lame villains they can't really alter without pissing off someone, on one side the moral pressure to teach vague lessons about friendship, and on the other the call to betray those lessons when Ash moves on. At this point, something or other has to give, and it's not going to be possible to leave everyone happy. The writers' challenge is practically just to make something that doesn't piss everyone off, and honestly, maybe it would just be better if they fail and this zombie is finally taken off life-support.

 

[tommytoe]

Brock constantly returning and people being sick of him is proof people don't want the same characters. Same for Team Rocket, people have found them tiring since...DP...or even AG before that.

I don't think people are sick of Brock, Ash, or Team Rocket from overexposure so much as underdevelopment. Brock was OK for the first few seasons. Not a great character, maybe, he was still a fairly level headed, knowledgeable mentor to Ash and Misty who had a weakness for pretty girls. He actually had a reason to be on the show. By the time he was written off for good he’d devolved into a sex obsessed idiot who stood on the sidelines of battle and provided pointless commentary. Ditto for Team Rocket. Some of the my favorite episodes are the ones that reveal more about the TRio back stories and personalities; Jessie wanted to be a Pokemon nurse, James ran away from his rich parents because he couldn’t stand the idea of marrying Jessebelle, Meowth learned to talk and walk upright to try and impress Meowsy and so on.

Granted, they never even came close to be as complex and well written as say, Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender or Demona from Gargoyles but they weren’t just one dimensional villains at first. Now? They boil down to “Let’s steal the twerp’s Pokemon! Oh no! Our plan didn’t work! Looks like Team Rocket’s blasting off again!” Maybe this is nostalgia talking but I honestly believe that the first couple of seasons actually tried to flesh out the characters somewhat and nowadays the writers have reduced them to a series of running gags.

 

[CyberCubed]

I don't think people are sick of Brock, Ash, or Team Rocket from overexposure so much as underdevelopment. Brock was OK for the first few seasons. Not a great character, maybe, he was still a fairly level headed, knowledgeable mentor to Ash and Misty who had a weakness for pretty girls. He actually had a reason to be on the show. By the time he was written off for good he’d devolved into a sex obsessed idiot who stood on the sidelines of battle and provided pointless commentary. Ditto for Team Rocket. Some of the my favorite episodes are the ones that reveal more about the TRio back stories and personalities; Jessie wanted to be a Pokemon nurse, James ran away from his rich parents because he couldn’t stand the idea of marrying Jessebelle, Meowth learned to talk and walk upright to try and impress Meowsy and so on.

Brock and Team Rocket were still good up until the end of AG. It was when DP started that Brock and Team Rocket declined into repetitive gag characters and everything that once made them good was gone.

AG really was the last saga where the writers could still use the old formula. The addition of May and the Contests was enough to make that saga feel fresh (especially since back then May was the first time we had a new girl), but once DP started and Dawn was introduced to do the same thing it became obvious the show needed more than just a female character swap.

Brock and TR both should have been axed for good at the end of AG. DP should have been a clean slate other than Ash.