Why is it ALWAYS about speed?

[jesusfreak94]

So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.

There are a couple of problems that I see with this. For one thing, how a Pokemon looks or whether or not it was "designed to look defensive" is completely subjective. I personally think all of those Pokemon I mentioned look cool except maybe Gastrodon, and Reuniclus and Conkeldurr don't exactly look "defensive" to me.

Second of all, I'm not sure what you mean by "rot" in the lower tiers. Pokemon in the lower tiers aren't rotting, their standing out. Let's take Hitmonlee in RU, for example. It makes a great offensive Fighting type in its respective tier, but it receives strict competition from Fighting types like Mienshao in UU and Terrakion in OU. If it weren't for lower tiers, it would receive little or no use at all. There's really nothing wrong with being in a lower tier. Being a lower tier Pokemon literally just means that you aren't used as much in the upper tiers, and it also means that you can be used in more tiers. If anything, it's a good thing, unless you choose to be offended by the term "Under/Rarely/Never Used".

 

[irock245]

1. So basically, ugly Pokemon and Pokemon only designed to look defensive get to make use of high defenses, while cool Pokemon rot in the lower tiers as usual.

...I3. know it's no one's fault but Nintendo's, and it's only an opinion on what Pokemon are cool or not, 2. but I can never get over how so many of my favorite Pokemon are low tiered, with so many of my least-favorite Pokemon are high tiered.

1. Where did you come up with that riduclous idea? Rampardos looks like it could tank a tank head on, yet dies if an absorb hits it.
2. Just another "y doez charizard suk in uberz it looks so kewl and i pwned the elit 4 w/ it in firered" argument. I love maractus, but I understand why it sucks so badly in OU, even if chlorophyll is activated, but I don't complain.
3. Did you just blame NINTENDO for putting your favorite pokemon in lower tiers? Considering your sentence composition, you end up putting the blame on Nintendo, even if you meant smogon. In that case, it's because they took a good long look at each pokemon, and compared them with every other competitively viable set (or at least I think they did). Their results determined what pokemon go in which tiers. Plus, just because a pokemon's in NU doesn't really mean anything anyway. Or you could just stop complaining about a fairly balanced ou (since the last time I checked anyways) and, I don't know, play NU and RU with your favorite pokes before you suddenly bash those tiers(which still offer the fun of OU and ubers with the added bonus of using your cool pokes)

Sorry if this comes off extremely rude or insulting to you, but parts of your argument don't make any sense, and I really don't know a better way to say this. I'd love a less speed centered metagame, but that's one of the reason's its fun in the first place.

 

[Zachmac]

3. Did you just blame NINTENDO for putting your favorite pokemon in lower tiers? Considering your sentence composition, you end up putting the blame on Nintendo, even if you meant smogon. In that case, it's because they took a good long look at each pokemon, and compared them with every other competitively viable set (or at least I think they did). Their results determined what pokemon go in which tiers. Plus, just because a pokemon's in NU doesn't really mean anything anyway. Or you could just stop complaining about a fairly balanced ou (since the last time I checked anyways) and, I don't know, play NU and RU with your favorite pokes before you suddenly bash those tiers(which still offer the fun of OU and ubers with the added bonus of using your cool pokes)

No, Smogon simply recorded how much the pokemon was used. Nintendo, or more specifically, Gamefreak are the ones that controlled each pokemon's stats, moves, typing, and abilities.

 

[MugoUrth]

No, Smogon simply recorded how much the pokemon was used. Nintendo, or more specifically, Gamefreak are the ones that controlled each pokemon's stats, moves, typing, and abilities.

This.

Well, it's hard NOT to complain when so many Pokemon you strongly dislike are OU or better, like Garchom, Scizor, Infernape, etc. with only two or three Pokemon you even remotely like in those tiers. (Let's assume we're not counting legendaries, which are usually OU or higher.) And then way too many of your favorite Pokemon are UU or lower. Yeah, of coarse it's going to sting. I mean, come on. Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Cloyster are just orbs wrapped in a shield. Blissey and Chansey are just ugly fat creatures with nothing going for them except that they're fat. Gastrodon... So basically the big, cool looking Swampert and the cute, happy Whiscash and other Water/Ground types are overshadowed by THAT ugly piece of ****? Conkeldurr and Reniculus are okay, but neither are all that interesting. OU-Higher has, like, four non-legendary Pokemon I like, and that's about it. The rest are Pokemon I strongly dislike, even hate, or just Pokemon I don't like. I'm not saying it should be different, I'm just saying it's really hard not to complain.

Also, since it's not ALWAYS about speed, how come the past few PotW's have been about "Oh, it's slow! Therefore, it's useless!" Honestly, I will never believe speed is as important as it's made out to be. I'd rather be able to deal lots of damage and take lots of damage than attack first or run away from wild Pokemon.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Well, it's hard NOT to complain when so many Pokemon you strongly dislike are OU or better, like Garchom, Scizor, Infernape, etc. with only two or three Pokemon you even remotely like in those tiers. (Let's assume we're not counting legendaries, which are usually OU or higher.) And then way too many of your favorite Pokemon are UU or lower. Yeah, of coarse it's going to sting. I mean, come on. Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Cloyster are just orbs wrapped in a shield. Blissey and Chansey are just ugly fat creatures with nothing going for them except that they're fat. Gastrodon... So basically the big, cool looking Swampert and the cute, happy Whiscash and other Water/Ground types are overshadowed by THAT ugly piece of ****? Conkeldurr and Reniculus are okay, but neither are all that interesting. OU-Higher has, like, four non-legendary Pokemon I like, and that's about it. The rest are Pokemon I strongly dislike, even hate, or just Pokemon I don't like. I'm not saying it should be different, I'm just saying it's really hard not to complain.

Actually, it's quite easy not to complain. Just count your blessings. Lower tier Pokemon have a huge advantage over higher tier ones: they can be used in more tiers. It doesn't automatically mean that they're bad, so there's no reason to get upset at a Pokemon being in a lower tier. If fact, there have been a couple of times where a Pokemon not being in a lower tier has come back to bite people. One great example is Metang, who was spammed in RU by a bunch of people as a joke and actually made the usage cut. However, this was at the same time that Zangoose and Cinccino gained their Dream World abilities and became top-tier threats in NU, as well as the same time that Braviary gained Roost and became even more dangerous with sets like the SubBulkUp set, which made people wish that Metang was still NU (which it did later drop back to). Although it's a fairly small niche, Metang is one of the few Pokemon in NU able to take hits from those guys pretty comfortably, a niche it lacks in RU. In this case, rising to RU was actually bad for Metang.

Also, since it's not ALWAYS about speed, how come the past few PotW's have been about "Oh, it's slow! Therefore, it's useless!" Honestly, I will never believe speed is as important as it's made out to be. I'd rather be able to deal lots of damage and take lots of damage than attack first or run away from wild Pokemon.

Which POTW's in particular? 99% of the time, speed is not the only issue that hurts a Pokemon's chances in a given tier. Speed isn't infinitely more important than bulk and power, but a Pokemon needs a good combination of those to be effective. For example, if you have a choice between a Pokemon with base 130 Atk and 100 Spe and a Pokemon with base 120 Atk and 110 Spe (neither with any other noticeable advantages), then you'll need to rationally decide whether or not the extra speed is worth the drop in power, and this is often heavily influenced by the metagame in question. For example, having a base 110 Spe stat in OU would let you beat Pokemon like Salamence, Volcarona, Jirachi, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Mienshao, Keldeo, Garchomp, and Landorus-I, while also speed tying with the Lati twins and Gengar. This is probably going to be more important than an extra 10 base points in power, since that speed can be the difference between kill or be killed when dealing with some of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in the metagame. Now, say you had a Pokemon with base 130 Atk and 50 Spe and another with base 120 Atk and 60 Spe. In this case, neither of the Pokemon are especially fast, so you'd probably be a bit more likely to choose the stronger Pokemon unless there's some bulky Pokemon you just really want to outspeed.

Again, pretty much the only time that speed is of absolute importance is when you're dealing with an offensive Pokemon that can't afford to take many hits.

 

[MugoUrth]

Wow, jesusfreak. I really admire your knowledge and your kindness.

I will say that a lot of POTW I've seen have bashed Pokemon just for their speed.

 

[Ilan]

This.

Well, it's hard NOT to complain when so many Pokemon you strongly dislike are OU or better, like Garchom, Scizor, Infernape, etc. with only two or three Pokemon you even remotely like in those tiers. (Let's assume we're not counting legendaries, which are usually OU or higher.) And then way too many of your favorite Pokemon are UU or lower. Yeah, of coarse it's going to sting. I mean, come on. Ferrothorn, Foretress, and Cloyster are just orbs wrapped in a shield. Blissey and Chansey are just ugly fat creatures with nothing going for them except that they're fat. Gastrodon... So basically the big, cool looking Swampert and the cute, happy Whiscash and other Water/Ground types are overshadowed by THAT ugly piece of ****? Conkeldurr and Reniculus are okay, but neither are all that interesting. OU-Higher has, like, four non-legendary Pokemon I like, and that's about it. The rest are Pokemon I strongly dislike, even hate, or just Pokemon I don't like. I'm not saying it should be different, I'm just saying it's really hard not to complain.

Also, since it's not ALWAYS about speed, how come the past few PotW's have been about "Oh, it's slow! Therefore, it's useless!" Honestly, I will never believe speed is as important as it's made out to be. I'd rather be able to deal lots of damage and take lots of damage than attack first or run away from wild Pokemon.

I wonder if you ever played wifi.. one game and you can already be convinced speed is important..

 

[irock245]

Wow, jesusfreak. I really admire your knowledge and your kindness.

I will say that a lot of POTW I've seen have bashed Pokemon just for their speed.

Yeah some of the posts on POTW aren't exactly the most accurate or reliable

 

[coolminun]

Everyine pretty much nailed it, so not much to say. I made a trick room team to really let my guts ursaring shine, because I know he'd die in normal battles. You can still play with your favorites, just know that if you want to win, you have to do what's best to accomodate them is all.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Yeah some of the posts on POTW aren't exactly the most accurate or reliable

Pfft, the ones I did were.

 

[Azulart]

Mugo, I really advice you to just play some battles and get to know the competive area a little, because although a charizard can beat the elite four doesnt mean that he is a beast that can tear everyone apart. Charizard is quite easily beaten in competive play.. While shuckle sucks when in-game play. He rocks in competive play, its really a diffrent world.

Judging by your comments and such, I think I can share an hand with you though.
I dont think your an OU player who wants to use all Powerfull poks etc.. I think your more the NU/UU/RU player.
In that section contains slightly less powerfull (Stat-wise) poks than OU and is more fun because of that and with many more reasons
you'll find out. And pokemon like persian or the others you have mentioned work really well in NU/RU, so why not give it a go.

 

[Dragalge]

Pfft, the ones I did were.

And they were lovely :')


Anyway Speed sometimes may not matter like the others said like Ditto, who you could just slap a Choice Scarf on it and nab there boosts to outspeed them like Volcarona (if HP Rock is there).

 

[Spudnugget1]

As a friend of mine (Who to my knowledge is much better at this then I will ever be) once said, battling is 30% strategy and 70% luck. There is no singular defined way on how you should play the game. Speed most certainly is a factor, there's no doubt about that, but due to the highly subjective nature of the system, it all comes down to luck. There is a feasible counter to mostly everything, no matter how many Choice Scarved men you throw at them.

 

[MugoUrth]

Mugo, I really advice you to just play some battles and get to know the competive area a little, because although a charizard can beat the elite four doesnt mean that he is a beast that can tear everyone apart. Charizard is quite easily beaten in competive play.. While shuckle sucks when in-game play. He rocks in competive play, its really a diffrent world.

Judging by your comments and such, I think I can share an hand with you though.
I dont think your an OU player who wants to use all Powerfull poks etc.. I think your more the NU/UU/RU player.
In that section contains slightly less powerfull (Stat-wise) poks than OU and is more fun because of that and with many more reasons
you'll find out. And pokemon like persian or the others you have mentioned work really well in NU/RU, so why not give it a go.

It's not really that I'm an UU/RU/NU player or anything like that, it's that so many Pokemon I like are in the lower tiers, and the majority of the Pokemon I DO like in the higher tiers are Ground type, which almost in itself is an OU type. (Gengar, and Venusaur are kind of the only non-ground/non-legendary Pokemon in OU that I like, with Hippowdon, Gliscor, Mamoswine, and Excadrill also being Pokemon I like.) I know jesusfreak said that the UU/RU/NU Pokemon are still strong, but it doesn't deny the fact that OU/Uber Pokemon are used more because they're stronger, and it still kind of bugs me.

...Anyone else notice the high amount of Ground Pokemon in OU?

 

[Eliteknight]

Wow, jesusfreak. I really admire your knowledge and your kindness.

I will say that a lot of POTW I've seen have bashed Pokemon just for their speed.

The reason they are bashed about their speed is that tons of pokes are very similar in movepools and in stats but speed sets them apart example

Gengar and Mismagius very similar speed and sp attack (the only 2 stats those 2 utilize) but mismag is slower

gengar and chandelure is also similar gengar has base 30 speed on chand while chand has much higher spa 15 but the speed makes gengar more reliable.

Haxorus is slower than mence. The latter has the ability to boost its strength by attacking making it more reliable attacker and has higher speed

It's not really that I'm an UU/RU/NU player or anything like that, it's that so many Pokemon I like are in the lower tiers, and the majority of the Pokemon I DO like in the higher tiers are Ground type, which almost in itself is an OU type. I know jesusfreak said that the UU/RU/NU Pokemon are still strong, but it doesn't deny the fact that OU/Uber Pokemon are used more because they're stronger, and it still kind of bugs me.

...Anyone else notice the high amount of Ground Pokemon in OU?

UU/RU/NU pokes are strong aswell Zaptos is a powerhouse in UU and can do well in OU
Another Example is Tornadus it was OU for the longest time

There is only 8 ground types but with gliscor being so popular and hippo setting weather along with the 2 lando forms runnign around it does seem like alot

 

[NoteLobo]

just use Trick Room :]

ROTFL. Anyways they all have legitimate points. Both those arguing for speeds importance and those arguing against it. But the real thing is that speed is rarely the entire reason why something isn't useable, but it is always the nail in the coffin for it. Here is an example, Torkoal.

It can spin, lay down rocks, and has physical bulk to rival Rypherior. But its Special Defense sucks, its typing sucks, and the nail in the coffin is its base 20 speed.

Speed lets you ignore problems like this. If Torkoal had a random base speed of 120 (It sounds like a locamotive right?) it wouldn't care about its terrible typing or low special defense. It would just swap in on a physical attack, shellsmash it up, and proceed to rain down all kinds of hell and damnation on it foes.

But the fact is its not that fast. So it suffers from its drawbacks. That is why speed matters.

 

[candyson]

here's an example:
deoxys-d(A) w/0 speed ev's vs. deoxys-d(B) w/4 speed ev's
turn 1: Deoxys-d(B) used taunt
Deoxys-d(A) just got laughed at because its too slow and can't do anything anymore

 

[Schade]

When you're fast, you can do anything! from setting up hazards to inflict status-conditions. And gain possible OhKo's

 

[randomspot555]

It's not really that I'm an UU/RU/NU player or anything like that, it's that so many Pokemon I like are in the lower tiers, and the majority of the Pokemon I DO like in the higher tiers are Ground type, which almost in itself is an OU type. (Gengar, and Venusaur are kind of the only non-ground/non-legendary Pokemon in OU that I like, with Hippowdon, Gliscor, Mamoswine, and Excadrill also being Pokemon I like.) I know jesusfreak said that the UU/RU/NU Pokemon are still strong, but it doesn't deny the fact that OU/Uber Pokemon are used more because they're stronger, and it still kind of bugs me.

...Anyone else notice the high amount of Ground Pokemon in OU?

In an environment where people play competitively (IE they play to win), that means they want to have a good solid strategy and then pick Pokemon and design sets that accomplish that strategy. If you build a team by picking favorites, then you'll have to either rely on luck and hope that favorite Pokemon does something useful, or shoehorn them into a role that is probably better filled by another Pokemon.

That doesn't mean a competitive player doesn't like the Pokemon he or she uses. But it does mean that they should design teams based on what Pokemon can fulfill their goal of winning rather than battling with the cutest or coolest looking Pokemon or whatever.

 

[Master Aqua]

It's really not that hard, if you can hit first and hit hard you net in a ko before the opponent and are less likely to be out sped and koed as a result which is crucial for fast hard hitting pokemon like gengar and tornadous, which need to ko first or b koed.