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Why was G-chomp added to Ubers!?!?!

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Kingdrom

Turn Away Again
Garchomp was considered an Uber by a vote from about 50 Smogoners who had proved their credibility through a sufficient Shoddy ranking on both the standard and suspect ladders. The only person who voted that I recognized as on Serebii would be Mysterious Stallion. I'd imagine that others such as Unaware and possibly Blue Ace are capable of such a ranking given the short notice that they got. A CRE of 1650 isn't easy to maintain when you have a large group of people intending to reach this target.

The Smogon tier list is based off of usage and power. They figured that usage implies power (in a certain metagame), and that works in only a purely competitive community such as Smogon.

I'm going to make a simplified SSBB comparison here. Captain Falcon is the most epic character in Brawl. People use sometimes him for that reason alone. However, the large population of Captain Falcon users are not likely to win many tournaments due to Meta Knight. Eventually, these Captain Falcon users will realize that it's useless to use Captain Falcon because he's so common and there are easy ways to deal with him (Meta Knight). These Captain Falcon users will go to MK and main him in order to be one of the ones who trounce other Captain Falcons and has no bad matchups. Eventually, we get a large amount of MK players who only play MK because it's useless to play anything else to win. Some smart players realized, hey, Snake can deal with MK pretty well if I camp and spam my tilts. So there became more Snake users who started winning tournaments that were once dominated by Snake.

Of course, the MK users weren't happy. So they searched for the most broken move they could use. This is called the Infinite Dimensional Cape. Eventually, they also found other ways around Snake, and Snake users no longer had the advantage. At this point, MK usage increased to a gross amount such that it eliminated any chance of a lesser sword/non projectile user from winnning a tournament except for GaW. So after a bunch of threads and flaming, the cape move still isn't banned (only for stalling), and the skill of MK users is skyrocketing. Competitive Brawl is currently reaching a point where the game is no longer fun (Melee addicts would argue it has been this way since the day it came out but w/e).

Just replace MK with Garchomp, Infinite Dimensional Cape with Yache SD Outrage, Captain Falcon with any low BL pokemon, GaW with Bronzong. That gives you the gist of why Garchomp was banned. Except Smogon took preemptive action instead of letting it get this far as the SSBB community did. It had to be done sometime. Using an overcentralized Pokemon to counter Garchomp is just like using Bowser to counter MK. It doesn't make sense, and even if it works, whenever any good projectile user or Shiek is CP'ed, Bowser has no chance. Liken this to using Cloyster as a Garchomp counter, if you will.

Basically it works like this: If you weren't motivated/experienced enough to make the deadline or have an account on smogon + the prerequisite ranking, then your opinion wasn't a deciding factor. Smogon is about competitive battling at it's finest, highest skill level. It may not apply to lesser-skilled players at Serebii or Marriland (lol).

Serebii will never have a tier list that will be respected by anyone else. This is because it is a place for both casual and competitive gamers alike, and it is difficult to discern who influenced the list. But who could blame them for not trusting it- basically anyone who doesn't post in this forum is either a mod or a casual player. With the sheer number of casual players, the experienced players are likely to be ignored. One of the CRMT commoners could go to a DPPt thread and have their insight completely ignored.

Edit: Yes, Salavoir55 has a complete understanding of this issue. Although aside from newbioform, I don't know anyone in CRMT who is pretty active on Smogon.
 
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Blue Ace

Pokemon is Dead
I'd imagine that others such as Unaware and possibly Blue Ace are capable of such a ranking given the short notice that they got.

You give me too much credit =/ I can't even break 1500, and I don't battle on the Suspect ladder.

I know Tochu could have been part of the vote, though he was heavily inactive at that time, as well as Extra. Reno also could have made it as well, but didn't want to.

Serebii will never have a tier list that will be respected by anyone else. This is because it is a place for both casual and competitive gamers alike, and it is difficult to discern who influenced the list. But who could blame them for not trusting it- basically anyone who doesn't post in this forum is either a mod or a casual player. With the sheer number of casual players, the experienced players are likely to be ignored. One of the CRMT commoners could go to a DPPt thread and have their insight completely ignored.

Serebii did have it's own Tier list for awhile, but was removed for the reasons you stated, though the thought of making a tier list of our own is very tempting...
 

ForteXXX

Call me…… Ilforte~!!
Serebii did have it's own Tier list for awhile, but was removed for the reasons you stated, though the thought of making a tier list of our own is very tempting...
That would be SO awesome, although Serebii would need a Shoddy server which probably won't happen :(
 

Xx_Dialga_xX

1337 pimp
its just pathetic. and people listen to smogon :(
 

sanjay120

?(???)?
I am waiting for the day when I can claim that Metaknight is so badass he was the first Smash Bros. character to ever be banned. The SSB community will do anything before they ban a character, it's both hilarious and pathetic.

The last Serebii tier list failed miserably (mostly because of MistyLover but some other people contributed too).
 

Lights of Freedom

Trailing Time
Lol...isn't this the RMT forum? O_O

Hello. I've been lurking your forums and smogon's for a while. I pay attention to what people say. I am now using my knowledge to benefit you. O_O

The only reason they banned Garchomp is because of it's yache set. No pokemon (except Ice Punch Weavile) could 1hko chompy. That would give chomp enough time to SD and outrage that poor "counter" to death. The scenario goes like this:

Garchomp comes in after an opposing scarfran has killed your tentacruel with EP

The opposing player switches out Heatran to switch in vaperon, because they know they're going to be set up bait if heatran keeps attacking with a weak attack.

Garchomp SD's while the fire an ice beam.

Garchomp lives because of yache with more than 40% of it health intact.

Gachomp spams an outrage and 1hko's your weakened vappy from all residual damage from before.

This scenario shows clearly that Garchomp has no counters. Walls don't have enough firepower in ice beam to kill chomp because of yache. While then chomp SD's and then destroys your wall. That is why smogon sent Garchomp to ubers. It was not based on mere usage.

Q. Why not just ban yache on chomp?
A. The reason is because that means yache should be banned entirely. It is not fair for one pokemon to not to have it. Other pokemon benefit with it too. I use a SD/Rock Polish Gliscor on my Dual Screen Team. I use yache to sponge the inevitable ice beam. I then BP to scizor.


Also about the tier system:

NU ---> UU based on usage
UU ---> BL The pokemon is too strong for UU
Bl ---> OU based on usage
OU ---> The pokemon is too strong for OU

Hoped I helped. Please keep the Serenity :p
 
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Elevator Music

Your average squid..
I got to vote.

Anyways... I think the timing for the ban couldn't have been poorer. Platinum came out what, like 16 days later? There are probably more viable ways to take down YacheChomp now. I think Jumpman keeps talking about a TrickScarf Cresselia, and it'd probably work.

I do think at the time Garchomp deserved Uber status however. It was on practically every team. Most of my teams at the time were 5 walls and Garchomp, and I basically always needed Toxic Spikes down all the time + Hippowdon to handle it. That or hope I would win the Garchomp speed tie (and that Sand Veil didn't kick in against me).
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
its just pathetic. and people listen to smogon :(

Smogon does extensive testing with statistics from Shoddy and some of the best competitive players making the decision, in a very public fashion.

The counter to it? "It's just pathetic" and a bunch of omzers teh chomp YOUTUBE RULEZ SMOGON DRUELZ crap.

Chomp was added to ubers because it was overcentralizing the metagame. In another gaming forum, a very knowledgable competitive battler went through a process and made a team. This was before Chomp was tested.

He said every team pretty much needs 2-3 Pokemon to counter Chomp. One to switch in and take a hit/weaken it/activate Yache, one to finish the job, and on the account of Sand Veil, one more to revenge kill.

More specifically:
Ability made even revenge killing less than a guarantee.
Immune to electric attacks. More specifically, Thunder Wave.
Decent base defenses, making Yache pretty much a perfect fit.
Resist rock (which the other OU dragons Salamence and Dragonite are weak to)
STAB on two great types.
Unique speed tier. Slapping a Band or Scarf on it could easily turn a match around.

Individually, this is all ok. All on one Pokemon, it makes it virtually uncounterable.

Yes, re-testing is going to be done (at least according to their Policy Review forum). But it's a long way away.

I also don't think the Plat moves made any realistic counters.
 

FurretFreak

Second Gen. Trainer
So liek one day Garchomp wuz liek "Hey u guyz, why am i's so gewds?" and peeps wur lieks "idk chomp, you da man" so now he's an uber

HILARIOUS! probably going to get sigged, if not by someone else then by me.
The video was also pretty funny.

I was also kind of inactive during the Chomp banning, due to being grounded from computer, but i think that nobody is going to be carrying TWO garchomp counters. As stated before, the counters are almost always not OHKOing but being OHKOed themselves. Hence the two counters. Also in a sandstorm ice beam does almost nothing, so a weavile, or something like it was almost a necessity in every team.

This thread should be moved (or closed)
 

EmpoleonStaraptorStarch

Ursaring CRUSH CLAW!
There are NO usable counters.

Anything that comes close to a counter *******ises the pokemon so much that it loses most/all of its usefulness against anything other then garchomp. A good example is SUICUNE.

No... Cloyster. Always survives 2 SD'd EQ's with quite a bit of HP left and OHKO's with Icicle Spear. Easy :p
 

Rad3n

Banned
No... Cloyster. Always survives 2 SD'd EQ's with quite a bit of HP left and OHKO's with Icicle Spear. Easy :p

I've been trying not to post in this thread to avoid the inevitable infraction but... The point about cloyster is that it's useless outside of beating chomp. You can't have every team donning a Cloyster and Garchomp (Assuming Cloyster is the only counter). That's called OVER-CENTRALISATION, the reason for the banning. Another factor is that I believe after SR damage, Cloyster is KOed. I've even heard Rhyperior as a counter... it just doesn't work. You can't have an extremely strong poke with one or two (possible) counters (And this isn't like mew where there is no strict "counter" but it can be dealt with. Even then mew is rare.). It means that every team needs them. That makes team building boring.

Also; Kingdrom... that brawl analogy is lame :p . Everyone knows that Cpt. Falcon is the worst character on brawl >_>. He's too slow on the attacks and has poor move priority (though I forget if he can wall jump). He also sucks at edge guarding. Peach is the ultimate counter to all things (except maybe meta-knight). Also; Ness > Meta-Knight. (Ness > Lucas too >_>)

Oh boy... this post is illegal. I don't wanna be infracted >_<
 

xgina

Banned
That would be SO awesome, although Serebii would need a Shoddy server which probably won't happen :(

no, it was horrible, seriously, and that was when decent battlers were actually active. nowadays it is just blue ace/reno rating every one in 10 teams while this forum continues to die. a serebii tier list nowadays would be even worse than the one mistylover tried to run.
 
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Rad3n

Banned
no, it was horrible, seriously, and that was when decent battlers were actually active. nowadays it is just blue ace/reno rating every one in 10 teams while this forum continues to die.

*nods*

(I know that means I suck)
 

EmpoleonStaraptorStarch

Ursaring CRUSH CLAW!
I've been trying not to post in this thread to avoid the inevitable infraction but... The point about cloyster is that it's useless outside of beating chomp. You can't have every team donning a Cloyster and Garchomp (Assuming Cloyster is the only counter). That's called OVER-CENTRALISATION, the reason for the banning. Another factor is that I believe after SR damage, Cloyster is KOed. I've even heard Rhyperior as a counter... it just doesn't work. You can't have an extremely strong poke with one or two (possible) counters (And this isn't like mew where there is no strict "counter" but it can be dealt with. Even then mew is rare.). It means that every team needs them. That makes team building boring.

Also; Kingdrom... that brawl analogy is lame :p . Everyone knows that Cpt. Falcon is the worst character on brawl >_>. He's too slow on the attacks and has poor move priority (though I forget if he can wall jump). He also sucks at edge guarding. Peach is the ultimate counter to all things (except maybe meta-knight). Also; Ness > Meta-Knight. (Ness > Lucas too >_>)

Oh boy... this post is illegal. I don't wanna be infracted >_<

Aww, let's whine more about over centralization, with a "z" that is. Anyhow, I personally liked the challenge of chomp, cuz with a little prediction and breaking off from the strict OU smogon sets you're able to effectively beat it out. It's not chomp you're trying to beat, it's the person battling with it. All you have to do is make THEM mis-predict, so yeah, chomp's un-counterable in theory, but not even the best battler always picks the right move :p Just be spontaneous and you win no problem, but everyone nowadays has to stick to their "OMG PMZ DID THS I HAVE TO DU IT 2 ITS THE ONLY WAI!"

Just keep restarting your games, children, if you want the same thing over and over again. Don't go restricting the metagame.
 

xgina

Banned
personally in plat metagame id think we'd see alot more scarfchomp, especially if skymin is ending up in ou. or yachechomp might balance out all the scarf heatrans i'm not sure.
 

Rad3n

Banned
centralization, with a "z" that is.

I speak Australian (The same as British) English... not this American dialect which is often contradictory to its own ideals (although I think you got it right on Defence/Defensive... why is it two different letters?). Using my spelling to over-rule my argument? Don't even try to go Ad hominem on me. I think you need to leave this thread alone... your reasoning is all flawed.
 

rippersteveM5

i hAVe A n05e
Basically reinstating what everyone else has said, Garchomp overcentralised the metagame (meaning that every about 2nd team had a Garchomp in it), and therefore every team had to have at least 2 counters for it. It was sent to ubers because of this.

(slightly off topic) On the other hand, I don't agree with Deoxys-S going back to Ubers. Sure, it outsped everything, and made scarfers think twice, but it was Pursuit weak, and didn't have great offensive or defensive stats. It was pretty much destroyed by priority moves. I know people will flame me for this, but that's just my view.

So liek one day Garchomp wuz liek "Hey u guyz, why am i's so gewds?" and peeps wur lieks "idk chomp, you da man" so now he's an uber

On a lighter note, this has been the best post in the thread. And on account of everyone sigging it, I am now sigging it :p
 

Yonowaru in Chaos

gaspard de la nuit
I speak Australian (The same as British) English... not this American dialect which is often contradictory to its own ideals (although I think you got it right on Defence/Defensive... why is it two different letters?).

Hi-fives!

No... Cloyster. Always survives 2 SD'd EQ's with quite a bit of HP left and OHKO's with Icicle Spear. Easy :p

And that's assuming your opponent didn't have Stealth Rock active.

(slightly off topic) On the other hand, I don't agree with Deoxys-S going back to Ubers. Sure, it outsped everything, and made scarfers think twice, but it was Pursuit weak, and didn't have great offensive or defensive stats. It was pretty much destroyed by priority moves. I know people will flame me for this, but that's just my view.

It was basically the best set-upper of entry hazards and other support moves; in this facet, he's pretty unbeatable, but in all other roles that Deoxys-S's movepool and stats could suggest, he fails bad.
 

Rad3n

Banned
Hi-fives!

Coolies (I can't believe I just wrote that)... I'll just settle for すごいですよ。 If that made any sense...xD

And that's assuming your opponent didn't have Stealth Rock active.

As I said =]

It was basically the best set-upper of entry hazards and other support moves; in this facet, he's pretty unbeatable, but in all other roles that Deoxys-S's movepool and stats could suggest, he fails bad.

Yet the most common moveset is four different attacking moves and a choice band / specs. Go figure >_>

10charlimit
 
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