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Will Alain be disqualified?

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Ririka

Fairy Trainer
If the writers have a plan of stripping off Alan's trophy, there are some things that needs to be resolved for it to go smoothly:

- Alan need to be shown consciously participating in the terrorism act. Like if Lysandre put Mairin's Chespin as a hostage or something, forcing Alan to cooperate, albeit unwillingly. This needs to be shown so they can form sense of guilt inside Alan's mind. He is forced to do something bad in order to protect his friends, and no matter what the reason is, bad things are bad.

- Another Ash vs Alan showdown in the middle of the TF arc, where Ash triumph. It could be a match where Ash trying to wake up Alan from his wrong way, or some clashes of ideals, but this match needed to be done to shows that Ash can beat Alan, whether it's an official match or not. The writing up until now always put Ash on the losing side against Alan, so even if it's not a league match, showing that Ash can finally overcome Alan will slightly lift the bitter taste of the league's lost.

- They need to show Mairin gives the harsh reaction towards Alan to wake him up. This is to make Alan realize that there is an error in his way, despite his intention is good. It shows that even the person Alan goes so far to protect doesn't want him to go the wrong way.

If the writers can successfully deliver all those points, only then the idea of Alan forfeiting his title would work. Cause otherwise people would rage over it, mostly the Alan fanboy.

Mind you that all my points above is simply speculation and possibilities, cause i saw some user here clearly can't differ between facts and possibilities.
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
I do not see anything suspicious about the battle. Unless it is revealed during the Team Flare arc, then there is not illegitmate win and Alain won because he was simply stronger.

I disagree, that final clash seems extremely off

Greninja's attack is a different color,
Greninja dominates most of the battle, blocks most attacks with a regular shuriken and knocks Charizard down with them too, yet this mega version does seemingly no damage
Greninja is basically out cold when the smoke clears, yet Ash does't respond/feel it until a few seconds after its fallen down.
Neither has a scratch on them when the smoke clears, they are both standing there in action poses without a mark, then Greninja just falls over

Thats the part of this battle that seems off, the final clash, its literally like Greninja takes a lot more damage then it should have while its attacks seems to literally vanish. Alain was clearly scared of the attack, so it doing seemingly nothing doesn't make any sense

While I seriously doubt Alain cheated, it is possible Lysandre or TF "lent" a hand during that final clash, since his win was within TF's interest its possible the moment they saw that attack they intervened. The whole ring was covered in smoke, so its not exactly out of the question, nor is it out of the realm of possibility for TF to rig the arena based on Lysandre's connections and power. Which could result in Alain not accepting the win and Ash and Alain having a 1 on 1 rematch over the trophy & title.

I would commend the writers if they actually have the balls to reveal foul play here, but I seriously doubt it
 
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Janovy

Banned
There is no foul play involved.

God, how desperate can one get?
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
There is no foul play involved.

God, how desperate can one get?

Yeah, the criminal organization with so much power and influence that they even have an E4 member and champion in their pocket would never resort to foul play when one of their own is in a tournament and its within their best interest he wins right?

As I said, the final stance before Greninja goes down is off. Both are standing there like nothing happened (no scratches, heavy breathing, trouble standing or anything like usual after these type of clashes), Greninja even had time to strike his ususal pose before the smoke cleared.

So either something is off, or the animators just severely screwed up the animation there

But automatically dismissing the very possibilty of a member of a criminal organization (granted unwittingly) not having gotten his win through foul play (again unwittingly) is being desperate. Until the TF arc is over, it remains possible (but I doubt the writers would dare pull it off)

The only thing I don't want now is
1. Ash having a rematch with Alain in the finale and winning, since thats the writers basically trolling us by making it clear he could have won when it mattered but they gave him a meaningless battle later to deny the title instead but making it clear he COULD have had it. The Tobias thing was bad enough. This is the second League Ash could have won if not for 1 trainer showing up, revealing he could actually beat that trainer the next day would be beyond terrible
2. Alain getting disqualfied and Ash winning by default. NO PITY TROPHY
 

Janovy

Banned
Yeah, the criminal organization with so much power and influence that they even have an E4 member and champion in their pocket would never resort to foul play when one of their own is in a tournament and its within their best interest he wins right?
They have no reason to want Alain to win over Ash. Whoever wins doesn't make a difference.

And it's not like Lysandre cares about Alain. He's clearly manipulating him - neither he nor Malva don't give a fuck about Alain.
 

Ririka

Fairy Trainer
The only thing I don't want now is
1. Ash having a rematch with Alain in the finale and winning, since thats the writers basically trolling us by making it clear he could have won when it mattered but they gave him a meaningless battle later to deny the title instead but making it clear he COULD have had it. The Tobias thing was bad enough. This is the second League Ash could have won if not for 1 trainer showing up, revealing he could actually beat that trainer the next day would be beyond terrible
2. Alain getting disqualfied and Ash winning by default. NO PITY TROPHY

On the contrary, i think they should set-up some kind of situation where they shows Ash can win against Alan, to redeem the whole points of Ash's growth storyline. Until now, we've seen 2 unofficial matches of them where Ash lose, this is before he masters the Greninja transformation. Then, Ash goes on a character development episode JUST to finally masters the Ash-Greninja. Then we have the league's final match, where he's being defeated again even after the Ash-Greninja mastery. If things are left this way, the whole storyline of Ash's growth seems going nowhere.

At the very least, they should make a point where the story shows Ash's growth means something, whether it's to protect the world, or something. I'm thinking of another Ash-Alan match (not a league rematch, more like a match in the TF arc) because it's the easiest way out to resolve this storyline.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, i think they should set-up some kind of situation where they shows Ash can win against Alan, to redeem the whole points of Ash's growth storyline. Until now, we've seen 2 unofficial matches of them where Ash lose, this is before he masters the Greninja transformation. Then, Ash goes on a character development episode JUST to finally masters the Ash-Greninja. Then we have the league's final match, where he's being defeated again even after the Ash-Greninja mastery. If things are left this way, the whole storyline of Ash's growth seems going nowhere.

At the very least, they should make a point where the story shows Ash's growth means something, whether it's to protect the world, or something. I'm thinking of another Ash-Alan match (not a league rematch, more like a match in the TF arc) because it's the easiest way out to resolve this storyline.

I don't see how Ash's growth is negatively affected by his loss to Alain at this point. Alain is simply by all the evidence given in the anime a much stronger trainer. Prior to this he's equalled champions and defeated members of the elite four. Ash-Greninja hasn't been presented as an unbeatable source of power. If it were Ash's name would change to Mary Sue. The fact that he's gone through that anyway shows personal growth - simply winning a battle isn't the only testament to personal growth. And in any case it's not as if they didn't fight as equal - it came down to one Pokémon, which is more than the wipe out Cameron gave him and much much better than Tobias.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Well, as far as facts go, he did assist TF in capturing Z2 of his own free will and Z2 is blatantly shown being controlled by TF in the upcoming episodes, though it's still unclear whether Alan will himself admit his involvement, have said involvement revealed by someone from TF who could also reveal Alan being used to collect the ME energy that's being used to cause all the destruction shown in the preview, or be squealed on by TRio, since they were witnesses to his battle with Z2. Even if Alan looses his trophy and Diantha decides that Ash deserves it, Ash would probably reject the trophy stating that he'd rather earn 1 the proper way ( even if he beats Alan during the TF arc ). Ash will probably earn a medal for saving Kalos like we do in the games, so that's something to look forward to, as he hardly ever gets praise for his heroic feats.
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, i think they should set-up some kind of situation where they shows Ash can win against Alan, to redeem the whole points of Ash's growth storyline. Until now, we've seen 2 unofficial matches of them where Ash lose, this is before he masters the Greninja transformation. Then, Ash goes on a character development episode JUST to finally masters the Ash-Greninja. Then we have the league's final match, where he's being defeated again even after the Ash-Greninja mastery. If things are left this way, the whole storyline of Ash's growth seems going nowhere.

At the very least, they should make a point where the story shows Ash's growth means something, whether it's to protect the world, or something. I'm thinking of another Ash-Alan match (not a league rematch, more like a match in the TF arc) because it's the easiest way out to resolve this storyline.

Problem remains that
League Battle win - Ash wins a League
Post League win - Ash wins nothing and gains nothing

Add the fact that any battle would be at most a few days after the league itself and the fact that it literally says Ash was indeed strong enough to win but the writers decided to have him lose when it counted just to screw with us then I prefer no match at all and leave the record 3-0. The writers already dropped the ball there and the only way its redeemed is by having the match deemed incorrect and and official do-over issued. Having a guy who never even cared about the tournament and was only there for a match with Ash win is just stupid

Have him fight and defeat Lysandre to save the world and show growth and either have an official rematch with the title on the line (in other words, some actual stakes here) or just forget Alain existed and move on (like all other league rivals who Ash lost to)
 

Ririka

Fairy Trainer
I don't see how Ash's growth is negatively affected by his loss to Alain at this point. Alain is simply by all the evidence given in the anime a much stronger trainer. Prior to this he's equalled champions and defeated members of the elite four. Ash-Greninja hasn't been presented as an unbeatable source of power. If it were Ash's name would change to Mary Sue. The fact that he's gone through that anyway shows personal growth - simply winning a battle isn't the only testament to personal growth. And in any case it's not as if they didn't fight as equal - it came down to one Pokémon, which is more than the wipe out Cameron gave him and much much better than Tobias.

It's not just about achievement in league, it's about a completion to a storyline.

For example, why D/P league is somehow still satisfying despite Trollbias, it's because Ash finally beat Paul in a close battle, to complete his story that his way of training pokemon is the right way compared to Paul's way. I'll refrain from talking about B/W since the series itself feels like a trainwreck mostly because they degrade Ash's mentality and skills so much that it's not funny.

Now XY, Ash's is arguably at his peak of matureness compared to other series, he got the 'protagonist' vibe that we always know, courageous, strong, and compassionate for his friends. Now they added this story of his special bonds with Greninja, where he fails along the way cause he focused more on power (he keep saying "More and more stronger!"), and finally solve it because what he needs is bonds with his pokemon. A strength gain from a mutual trust. Then comes Alan, a guy who believes in power and kinda reminds you of Ash on his wrong path, which is too focused about being the strongest.

What's done is done, Ash lose to Alan in the finals. But i do think they need to show that Ash's way of "bonds with pokemon" is ultimately the better way somehow or another, and that's why the easiest i could think of is another showdown in the middle of Team Flare havoc. Of course, they could also finish the storyline by showing how Ash saves the day. But i think a win against Alan achieve both Ash's storyline peak and Alan's character development at once.

Problem remains that
League Battle win - Ash wins a League
Post League win - Ash wins nothing and gains nothing

Add the fact that any battle would be at most a few days after the league itself and the fact that it literally says Ash was indeed strong enough to win but the writers decided to have him lose when it counted just to screw with us then I prefer no match at all and leave the record 3-0. The writers already dropped the ball there and the only way its redeemed is by having the match deemed incorrect and and official do-over issued. Having a guy who never even cared about the tournament and was only there for a match with Ash win is just stupid

Have him fight and defeat Lysandre to save the world and show growth and either have an official rematch with the title on the line (in other words, some actual stakes here) or just forget Alain existed and move on (like all other league rivals who Ash lost to)

Refer to my above post, it's not just about the league for me.

Also, the thing about "He could've win" is better for me, than simply a hopeless match against Legendary pokemon trainer in D/P. It feels more realistic, as in you can do things, but if it's not meant for you, you just can't have it for that moment. Winning post league doesn't mean nothing for me, it means a completion to a story arc.

I know some of you would get frustrated with the "He could've win that!", but it's just a personal frustration. Again, it's not just about the league or titles or whatever. Not everything has to mean something for Ash's league, cause the way the story goes right now, clearly the writers want to show that the Team Flare arc is more serious business to face rather than just a title in a champion league.
 

Ablet

Member
As I said, the final stance before Greninja goes down is off. Both are standing there like nothing happened (no scratches, heavy breathing, trouble standing or anything like usual after these type of clashes), Greninja even had time to strike his ususal pose before the smoke cleared.

I would just like to say: that kind of delayed reaction is a cliche in fictional fights. Especially notable in anime swordsman/samurai duels.

1. Two fighters face off and they throw their best attack at one another for one last exchange.

2. After the exchange, we see one of them look like they're hurt and would lose.

3. The camera shifts focus to the other fighter who suddenly falls down.

4. Surprise surprise. The winner is the one who you thought would lose at first.

I'm sure many people have seen at least one series with a similar scene like this that it isn't really surprising anymore.
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
Also, the thing about "He could've win" is better for me, than simply a hopeless match against Legendary pokemon trainer in D/P. It feels more realistic, as in you can do things, but if it's not meant for you, you just can't have it for that moment. Winning post league doesn't mean nothing for me, it means a completion to a story arc.

I know some of you would get frustrated with the "He could've win that!", but it's just a personal frustration. Again, it's not just about the league or titles or whatever. Not everything has to mean something for Ash's league, cause the way the story goes right now, clearly the writers want to show that the Team Flare arc is more serious business to face rather than just a title in a champion league.

The only reason Ash goes to a region is to get the badges, enter the league, win it and move on to the Champions League. Thats literally the goal of the specific region he is in.

Saying, he COULD have moved on to the Champions League and COULD have seen Ash in a proper full battle with the champ but instead decided to screw him out of a win when there were stakes involved and give him a random meaningless win later is a punch in the face, plain and simple.

The problem isn't Ash losing the league, the problem with a rematch win is the fact that no training period is involved, meaning he could have won when it mattered but the writers decided to deny him a league win yet again but show he actually should have had it. In the end Ash is at the same place he was in Sinnoh, he lost to the guy that won the league while being shown the strongest remaining participant. So now we have 2 league's he'd have won if not for 1 trainer.

This isn't about growth, this about Ash entering the region with a goal, not fulfilling it because he wasn't ready is one thing, failing with the reveal he could have won is another story altogether.
 

Cetra

Pokémon Master
I know some of you would get frustrated with the "He could've win that!", ...

The problem is, the way we see it at the moment, Ash could not win. Not at all.

- If the match was set up through some unfair thing so he would not win, he wouldn't have a chance.
- If the match was not set up and it was a legit win, then the writers just wrote a totally and absolutely ridiculous Charizard that he never had any chance to beat to begin with. In any case the 5 other Pokémon do not mean anything here.

So this is also what would make the "unfairness" possibilitiy so much more satisfying than Ash just facing someone he could never defeat in the first place as he was written as too strong.
 

Ririka

Fairy Trainer
The only reason Ash goes to a region is to get the badges, enter the league, win it and move on to the Champions League. Thats literally the goal of the specific region he is in.

Saying, he COULD have moved on to the Champions League and COULD have seen Ash in a proper full battle with the champ but instead decided to screw him out of a win when there were stakes involved and give him a random meaningless win later is a punch in the face, plain and simple.

The problem isn't Ash losing the league, the problem with a rematch win is the fact that no training period is involved, meaning he could have won when it mattered but the writers decided to deny him a league win yet again but show he actually should have had it. In the end Ash is at the same place he was in Sinnoh, he lost to the guy that won the league while being shown the strongest remaining participant. So now we have 2 league's he'd have won if not for 1 trainer.

This isn't about growth, this about Ash entering the region with a goal, not fulfilling it because he wasn't ready is one thing, failing with the reveal he could have won is another story altogether.

What i'm saying is, what's done is done. Ash loses the league, that's it.

Now as to the story itself, it's still not completed. This time they're given a chance to redeem that by showing Ash's growth in action. Just because he lose the league, preventing something that could lead the completion of his story arc this time (in this case, winning against Alan) to avoid some frustration is more frustrating to me than knowing "He could've win the thing".

True, Ash enters the region with a goal. In the middle of this region, they set-up this new story arc about his bond with Greninja that's "destined for greatness", as Olympia said. Just because the region goal is not fulfilled (the league), shall we forget about the new story arc too?

Repeating my first post regarding this, i know it doesn't need to be Ash vs Alan again, but it's the easiest way out for now. Honestly i don't care if it's a rematch or not, as long as they show us the completion to this story arc, and the completion to Alan's character development.
 

Minios

Smoke weed everyday
Ash vs Alain in the 6v6 would be boring imo, since we will probably just see the same roster between the two battling again.

However, I would love to see AshGreninja vs M-Charizard rematch in the TF arc.

At this point, it would be best if Alain gets disqualified or the League gets canceled.
 
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PAndrews

Well-Known Member
I would just like to say: that kind of delayed reaction is a cliche in fictional fights. Especially notable in anime swordsman/samurai duels.

1. Two fighters face off and they throw their best attack at one another for one last exchange.

2. After the exchange, we see one of them look like they're hurt and would lose.

3. The camera shifts focus to the other fighter who suddenly falls down.

4. Surprise surprise. The winner is the one who you thought would lose at first.

I'm sure many people have seen at least one series with a similar scene like this that it isn't really surprising anymore.

I know the scene itself is a cliche, even Pokemon has used it dozens of times (such as Charizard vs Blaziken)
The problem is neiter have a mark on them, despite until now (in this region) we have seen battle damage, eye's partially closed, trouble standing upright and so on. Greninja supposedly took a Blast Burn that knocked it out, yet after taking said hit decided to strike a pose for a few seconds instead. We also have Ash, who didn't get knock down until Greninja went down
What also seems out of place in this is Alain was scared of Greninja's final attack, yet Charizard doesn't have a mark on it either. Had this been similar to Charizard vs Blaziken, with one out cold and the other barely standing is one thing, but having both completely unharmed and striking poses another.

Then there is the fact that Greninja pulled a new attack out of nowhere just for it to fail, which again seems weird (unless we get a reveal that the reason the attack turned orange is due to TF stealing Greninja's energy) and the preview reveals TF has access to some little orbs that instantly knock someone out (which could explain why Greninja and Ash seemed fine one second, then both fell the next)

Especially if you add this is a region where Lysandre is using Alain to collect mega energy, so it is possible they were literally stole the energy of those attacks and Greninja at the end (which explains lack of damage and Greninja suddenly passing out). The alternative is the animators just screwed up royally here. Time will tell
 

AuraKshatriya

Well-Known Member
It's possible Alain could be disqualified (though taking this route and dropping the ball at the end of the actual battle is still a really anti-climatic approach). So far we know Alain has been "collecting" Mega Evolution energy, and it's implied he does so through his Mega Ring, which seems mechanical in nature. If the Mega Evolution energy he collects powers up Mega Charizard X while on his possession, then it's technically possible he Charizard wasn't battling using just his own individual strength during the Finals (having at least the energy absorbed from Trevor's Charizard and Louie's Garchomp added to his own). Lysandre could reveal that after taking the remaining energy from Alain to Mega Evolve his own Gyarados, "breaking" Alain in a sense. If Diantha is present, she'd likely revoke his victory, and in a sense it does sort of make Ash and Greninja look even stronger since they would've been fighting a Pokemon with the power of several Mega Evolutions pretty evenly.

But I'm not going to hold out for that outcome. This finals loss could end up being just a straight-up (and narratively nonsensical) loss, so I don't want to get my hopes up just yet.
 

sheld999

Well-Known Member
It would make him a Pokemon Master, but leave that hunger to win on his own merits to make the next chapter more dramatic.

I can see the Alola trials being something only Pokemon Masters do, and Ash does it but has a stigma around him, because he didn't win on his own merits. He gets shunted by other Masters.

It makes sense to me that he does Alola to prove his worth as a Pokemon Master.

winning the league doesn't make you a master. it makes you the champion of the competition. and entry to the champion league
 

Kalavinka

Well-Known Member
Nobody wants a pity win, least of all Ash (everyone wants to see him win on his own skill, not a technicality). If the rumours of Team Flare rigging the match are true, I'd say either get an official Charizard vs Greninja rematch, or annul the match or tournament in its entirety, depending on how aware Alain was of the situation.
 

Red Pheonix

Well-Known Member
I feel like the only reason Alain being disqualified is even a theory is because everyone else is still salty and butthurt over the fact that Ash didn't win the League.

Can you just talk without saying everyone is salty/butthurt? Some of us just want to talk about something and that's it. No mud throwing please. It's annoying.
 
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