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Will ALL old characters be retconned out of existence from now on?

Do you think old characters will be retconned out in BW?


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C'mon, Pokemon fan 132, by now you have to realize how long its been since Misty last appeared and how the show has gone on for almost a decade without her.

Misty completed her run just like May and Dawn did, and Iris eventually will.

Its no more complicated than that.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
C'mon, Pokemon fan 132, by now you have to realize how long its been since Misty last appeared and how the show has gone on for almost a decade without her.
Unlike some people im not assuming things when in reality its unown what will happen.Just because character hasnt appeared in region A doesnt mean he wont comeback in region B.If minor characters like Jessibelle,Gary,Jasmine etc could find their way to return after years of absence,there is no reason why somene more important shoulnt return too.

So in reality no i dont think Misty,May,Dawn,Brock and whoever leaves cast will be erased from existence.It may past long time(thanks to writers ignorance) before theyre seen again but im pretty sure they will return at some point.

Misty completed her run just like May and Dawn did, and Iris eventually will.

Its no more complicated than that.
Storywise said character didnt completed its run,but thats beside the point.
 

Ideologies

What Now?
Storywise said character didnt completed its run,but thats beside the point.
You can't argue that since its more of an opinion than a fact. The fact that the writers have not continued Misty's story is an indication that her story is mostly, if not entirely, complete.

Anyways, what is with all the negativity in this topic? The question is will ALL the old characters be retconned out of existence, not just Misty. So why is there bashing of her character and her fans if the topic is not Misty :p.

Retconned means that they would basically erase any impact or evidence that any other character other than the ones in BW ever existed, and an overall negation of previous lore/cannon by the new ones presented. By the fact that the trophy case contains trophies from DP AND that May's statue...thingy...thing is there, is evidence enough that atleast from AG on, no, they will not be retconned.
 
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pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
You can't argue that since its more of an opinion than a fact. The fact that the writers have not continued Misty's story is an indication that her story is mostly, if not entirely, complete.
Ill try to keep it short.
When character gets replaced with no build up in last moment with everything going for him being left unresolved he didnt received closure.Misty left out of obligation with plots going for her like Togepi,goal of becoming water master(at gym this cant be completed for several reasons),her backstory which was not exloited much being left without closure.

There is a term which describes this situation and its called "putting character on bus" replacing him in such a way purposely leaving his story unfinished just to have gateway to bring him back in case writers decide to do something with it in future.
However that doesnt mean they have to bring him back,just leaving character forever placed at one place.
For further proof even ex head writer who did construction for original series(Takeshi Shudo) admitted how she wasnt developed enough.
Considering how writers didnt did much with her plots and goals in first place it wasnt possible to tie up this loose ends considering how you cant go with someones story from point A to point B if you hvent developed his story in first place.

Reason why they didnt continued with her story:
-since she wasnt main character anymore there was no need to concentrate on her,leaving things which surrounded her being put in second plan.
 

Teshub

Banned
pokemon fan 132, what you are saying is that the writers are going to use Misty as a backup in case the new character doesn't work out?

That must mean you are hoping that Iris is unpopular to most Japanese fans and fails in promoting the franchise. Hence providing the chance for Misty to be brought back for a cameo and finish with her development. You are not a pokemon fan then, only a misty fan.
 

Corzola

Gible´s biggest fan!
Now now, lets not start a flame- war of sorts. If we look at it from another pov, what needs to be done and what could [be fun] be done:

Misty, May and Dawn - indeed Misty´s goal was unfinished. She set out to become a Water Pokémon master of some sort, and when we left her she was only a Gym- Leader. That meant that she still has things that could be done with her character. If these things needs to be done is an entirely different thing. They can very well let Misty end up as a Gym- leader and nothing would be ruined in the bigger view of the show. Pokémon the anime series are mainly about Ash (and Pikachu).

The same goes for Dawn, who was left (so far as we know of at this moment) "behind" as well. She did state her goal of becoming a Top- Coordinator at the end of the Sinnoh League arc BUT we did not see anything of her continueing journey. Heck we even saw Kenny de facto head of to another region. Chances are of course that Dawn does something similar. But we does not know.

With May we know that she is out there continuing to fight for her goal and we can actually leave her at that for the moment. She like thousands of other trainers/coordinators are after the same thing and maybe we one day sees her succeed. But unless we see her become a Top- Coordinator she is still out there fighting for it, meaning that we know that she has not yet reached her goal.

So the fact is that while May are the only one we know are trying to achive an original goal both Misty and Dawn in fact lacks something of that. In Dawns case we can assume that she continues after DP 191, but we do not know to which region or her progress until we see her again. In Misty´s case we do not know if she [in series] decided that Gym- Leader was enough (hinted in the Pokémon chronicles that she for the moment sees it that way, when she told Nurse Joy to say to Ash that "his friend Misty finally made it as a Gym- Leader") or if she will continue to reach for her ultimate goal of becoming a Water Pokémon Master. So pokemon fan 132 are right in point that Mistys story at the moment are left unfinished BUT on the other hand the series does not have to resolve this today or any day.

I would love to see Misty´s story finished, either it be that she are named a famous Gym leader and that we then can assume that she decided to go for that, or that she returned to state that she still wanted to be a Water Pokémon Master. But I do not need to see it for the sake of Pokémon the anime series.

So I think one has to make a difference between what [/i]could be done[/i] for the sake of the characters (were Misty and Dawn clearly does have their stories not all done, but we can assume alot about their lives after their stint in the series) and what needs to be done for the series anime (in which category they do not need to finish their arcs).
 
Misty is in Cerulean, and Misty's goal is unfinished. I doubt we will see anything of her contributing towards her goal anytime soon, if at all. I'm sure we'll get mentions of her, or brief cameos. I highly doubt she'll be gone forever. As for Brock he's going to be a doctor, so he's not really tied to any particular region. He can easily appear again.

May got her appearance, and she headed back to Johto to continue her quest to win the GF there. We never saw her after that, so we don't know how she placed or if she won. Though I'm sure all of the main characters will accomplish their dreams around the same the time at the end of the show, so I don't expect to see any of her until then.

Dawn was going to go to Kanto with Ash, and Brock to presumbably travel with them some more. But she got the invite to the photoshoot with her Buneary, so that saw her stay in Sinnoh. We actually have no idea where she is going after, which might be explained when, and if she gets an appearance in BW.

Tracey, Prof. Oak, and Gary are tied to Pallet Town it seems so there's always that oppurtunity to see them again. With the former two being more likely than the latter.
 

Paul Ketchum

Remarkable!
Thats irrelevant,point was that if young kid doesnt know about older character he will have the same view about him like he would do for new one.
Not if they find out they're an old character. Which is possible, as you would say, through the internet, reruns, forums, etc. A new character doesn't have that problem.

Not everything,things i provided regarding certain number of older fanbase,said character story,and how new or old character to unfamiliarized young audience wouldnt mean much of difference are factual and can be easily checked at anytime.
First, you didn't provide a certain number of the older fan base because you don't know it, not factual.

Second, you don't know how much of a difference an old character being brought back to the show would have on a young audience, not factual.

These are your opinions.

How much of benefit would said move do for TV show is unown.And yes while writers may not care so much about older audience,cameos from older characters,references to past etc are reminder of writers not completely forgetting about them.Thing is that people get wrong picture of majority from older fans not following this show anymore because in reality this number is not so tiny as some may think it is.
There are three types of older fans:-those who sticked with show never leaving it
-those who took a break coming back after couple of years
-those who dont watch show anymore because of various reasons,still keeping up with updates.
Can we in reality know how big percentage of older fans being interested in this show is?We can assume,but we cant know for sure.
This is the exact point that I've been trying to get across to you. This statement right here contradicts the above portion of your argument because you've been constantly stating things to be factual based off your personally assumed percentage, actions, and thoughts of fans from the older and younger demographics.

That doesnt mean how hey would be choosed anytime over important character.
I never said they were always going to be chosen over older important characters, just that their chances are higher because they are far more easier to return.

Amount of screentime also plays important role when it comes to characters importance and it cant be ignored.Why Ash receives more focus than others?Because he is central character and point of story with plots revolving around him,so i dont think its fair to compare level of importance of Ash with someone who barely affected storyline like Max.
We can't take this portion of the debate any further because of your total lack of knowledge on the subject of characters and their importance pertaining to a story.

Actually no,it was specifically stated how they thought only of replacing somene between Misty or Team Rocket with Ash never coming in consideration during Johto.Now i cant speak for later generations,but during first 5 seasons he was supposed to remain.
Was it specifically stated that Ash never came into consideration?
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
pokemon fan 132, what you are saying is that the writers are going to use Misty as a backup in case the new character doesn't work out?
That wasnt my intention,but in worst case scenario its not farfetched.It definitely wouldnt be first time in history of TV industry,something from past being reintroduced to serve as recover for TV ratings.

That must mean you are hoping that Iris is unpopular to most Japanese fans and fails in promoting the franchise. Hence providing the chance for Misty to be brought back for a cameo and finish with her development. You are not a pokemon fan then, only a misty fan.
Im not hoping anything,im just stating how writers like to have more options under their sleeve giving them more ways out if something goes wrong.Regarding Mistys return,amount of untapped potential for further development gives writers enough material to have her back not only for cameo but for whole saga too if they decide to do so giving themself enough time to properly tie up lose ends,exploiting things more.

Regarding second assumption,im both.If i was only Misty fan,i would stop watching this show when she was replaced but i didnt because im watching this anime for several things.

Not if they find out they're an old character. Which is possible, as you would say, through the internet, reruns, forums, etc. A new character doesn't have that problem.
Even if they find out about new character it wouldnt play much of difference either.If anything it would serve as bridge giving connection to older seasons with audience giving it a chance due to lack of knowleadge about certain character being given oppirtunity to learn about him without watching 600+ past episodes following further progress.Ash and Brock,including Team Rocket are old characters too with new generations of kids not having any problems with them.

As long show catches their interest,they wont mind who is in it.

First, you didn't provide a certain number of the older fan base because you don't know it, not factual.
My intention was never to provide exact number.What i stated as fact was how there exist older fans who are willing to go back to watch this show if right terms are met or are already watching it.

Second, you don't know how much of a difference an old character being brought back to the show would have on a young audience, not factual.
If they dont know about him,it woudnt be any different than bringing new character.Simple as that.
If they do know about him,it wouldnt be any diferent than same kind of reintroduction Ash or TR are passing through by entering new sagas with time required for explanation behind return not taking any more than few min. or max 1 episode.

This is the exact point that I've been trying to get across to you. This statement right here contradicts the above portion of your argument because you've been constantly stating things to be factual based off your personally assumed percentage, actions, and thoughts of fans from the older and younger demographics.
Did i ever specifically stated exact percentage of older fanbase coming in equation?No.

What i did was arguing how number of older fans who are in contact with this show cant be assumed as being small fraction of people when in reality we cant know how big that number really is.

What is factual regarding older fanbase is how certain number of them would return to show if certain older characters were to return which would seve as boost for ratings.

In case you think this is assumption too,you can always check statements of people who signed petitions or do some research through forums to see what is general consensuz among people regarding some subjects.

We can't take this portion of the debate any further because of your total lack of knowledge on the subject of characters and their importance pertaining to a story.
Im sorry but i cant take seriously statements of characters like Max being equal to Ash in terms of importance,when they obviously arent leaving nearly as much of impact on this show or story as Ash does with show revolving around him.

To make things worse you are completely ignoring to take in consideration how size of role in story also determines how important some character to story really is.

Was it specifically stated that Ash never came into consideration?
Considering it was stated how only Misty and Team Rocket came into consideration during Johto,with Ash and Brock being intended to continue on next region is confirmation how writers didnt had any plans to remove Ash at that time.
Which is understandable considering how end of Ash would mean end of pokemon series,with total reboot with whole new characters and story being needed to be done.
 
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Kotone

Well-Known Member
I'd say people should stop trying to find a way to argue and satisfy their fanboy needs by trying to argue with pokemofan132. If you are going to argue with someone argue with me. I'm going to say "I want MISTY back and I hope IRIS fails". Because Misty was the best female character. My opinion you say? Well ok here is a percentage: 98% of youtbe video comments about pokemon (that I saw) say that they want the old pokemon back. It just that serebii forums don't have many of those people. Also is it a coincidence that pokemon was mentioned EVERYWHERE in it's prime time (kanto-oi-johto) and it was everyones fav thing to watch. Whereas nowadays it's 80% times harder to find someone who can even count 10 pokemon names. *gets ready for bashing*
 
I'd say people should stop trying to find a way to argue and satisfy their fanboy needs by trying to argue with pokemofan132. If you are going to argue with someone argue with me. I'm going to say "I want MISTY back and I hope IRIS fails". Because Misty was the best female character. My opinion you say? Well ok here is a percentage: 98% of youtbe video comments about pokemon (that I saw) say that they want the old pokemon back. It just that serebii forums don't have many of those people. Also is it a coincidence that pokemon was mentioned EVERYWHERE in it's prime time (kanto-oi-johto) and it was everyones fav thing to watch. Whereas nowadays it's 80% times harder to find someone who can even count 10 pokemon names. *gets ready for bashing*
So why are you here? Just to troll?

You can't possibly be stupid enough to wonder why the show went on for nearly 10 seasons after Misty left if that were the case.
 

Teshub

Banned
I'd say people should stop trying to find a way to argue and satisfy their fanboy needs by trying to argue with pokemofan132. If you are going to argue with someone argue with me. I'm going to say "I want MISTY back and I hope IRIS fails". Because Misty was the best female character. My opinion you say? Well ok here is a percentage: 98% of youtbe video comments about pokemon (that I saw) say that they want the old pokemon back. It just that serebii forums don't have many of those people. Also is it a coincidence that pokemon was mentioned EVERYWHERE in it's prime time (kanto-oi-johto) and it was everyones fav thing to watch. Whereas nowadays it's 80% times harder to find someone who can even count 10 pokemon names. *gets ready for bashing*
Claps, I agree with you. I also want Iris to fail, but not for fanboy reasons. I don't like the fact they chose her for politically correct reasons. I hope her character fails and the writers get a hint of what fans want, not what their corporate and marketing consultants tell them.
 

Ash-kid

Ash-kid
Claps, I agree with you. I also want Iris to fail, but not for fanboy reasons. I don't like the fact they chose her for politically correct reasons. I hope her character fails and the writers get a hint of what fans want, not what their corporate and marketing consultants tell them.
You shouldn't have said that. You want Iris to "fail"? With what exactly?
You can forget about old characters. They might return for a cameo (and even this is a slim chance) but not to the main cast.

If after 13 years you still don't understand that in every generation there is a new girl, so you don't know much about the show.
 

Fa7e

Well-Known Member
if mistys returned now, later in the show, i think the show would be amazing, it would also be very different i think because we are used to seeing highly energetic girls, and misty has changed a ton since when we first say her and she has probablly got alot stronger and more responsible to, i also think if she came back it could draw back older fans because she would be more mature than any of the girls we have seen, people say so much crap on how she was useless and did nothing, and so were her pokemon, thats because the show progressivly got better and we saw more personally in pokemon and other things getting better and realized how much better it is now than it was before, even ash's and brocks older pokemon didnt have as much personality as their pokemon do now, bringing back an old popular character with some of the old flaws being fixed now i think would be a great thing and alot of people would be suprised how good the show would be.
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
Claps, I agree with you. I also want Iris to fail, but not for fanboy reasons. I don't like the fact they chose her for politically correct reasons. I hope her character fails and the writers get a hint of what fans want, not what their corporate and marketing consultants tell them.
It most certainly is for fanboy reasons. Ever since you finally realised Dawn wasn't coming to Isshu as well you've been bashing Iris non stop.

So how exactly do you know that Iris was chosen for PC reasons? We know now that she is in the games and isn't anime only, so she has been lifted directly from the games as she is. What, you want them to make her a white girl in the anime? If you have PC issues- take it up with GameFreak, they created the character.

And the fans you talk about are presumably just Dawn fans, of whom there are at least an equal amount of May and Misty fans. If the writers brought back Dawn, there would be a greater number of May and Misty fans combined who would be unhappy. So the writers can't please any of you fanboys.
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
if mistys returned now, later in the show, i think the show would be amazing, it would also be very different i think because we are used to seeing highly energetic girls, and misty has changed a ton since when we first say her and she has probablly got alot stronger and more responsible to, i also think if she came back it could draw back older fans because she would be more mature than any of the girls we have seen, people say so much crap on how she was useless and did nothing, and so were her pokemon, thats because the show progressivly got better and we saw more personally in pokemon and other things getting better and realized how much better it is now than it was before, even ash's and brocks older pokemon didnt have as much personality as their pokemon do now, bringing back an old popular character with some of the old flaws being fixed now i think would be a great thing and alot of people would be suprised how good the show would be.
Misty's returning won't make the show any different, it'll make the show old. Bring back old characters isn't helping the writers make the new characters personalities stand out from all the others in the past. And Iris is considered an energetic girl too. Besides, I hope that Iris does gets just as strong as Ash got in DP so that people won't say that she's not good enough.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
Misty's returning won't make the show any different, it'll make the show old. Bring back old characters isn't helping the writers make the new characters personalities stand out from all the others in the past. And Iris is considered an energetic girl too. Besides, I hope that Iris does gets just as strong as Ash got in DP so that people won't say that she's not good enough.
Than i guess Ash and Team Rocket are painful for you to watch because theyre "ancient old" characters.After so much time without her in anime her return would to me feel like breath of fresh air bringing interesting change of things and opportunity that she gets developed more and open new chapters.Considering she isnt doing contests,and wasnt progressed enough for first time around nowdays her return would mean bringing something new with herself and unpredictable regarding her quest of water pokemon master since we dont have enough info about whole thing.
 

Shygirlfrumfl

Let's suit up!
I don't think so at least not completely the writers might make a character visit for an episode or two for each series like they did with Gary,May,and Misty.
 

streetlightdsb

Uni hiatus
Than i guess Ash and Team Rocket are painful for you to watch because theyre "ancient old" characters.After so much time without her in anime her return would to me feel like breath of fresh air bringing interesting change of things and opportunity that she gets developed more and open new chapters.Considering she isnt doing contests,and wasnt progressed enough for first time around nowdays her return would mean bringing something new with herself and unpredictable regarding her quest of water pokemon master since we dont have enough info about whole thing.
So, hypothetically, if Misty came back, what exactly would she do? I can't see her being a "breath of fresh air" if she doesn't do anything. And why wouldn't Iris be a breath of fresh air, being that she's completely new?

As much as I liked Misty back in the day, I wouldn't be happy with her return; because she would only natter on about water Pokemon and Togepitic while Ash could be having a battle.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
So, hypothetically, if Misty came back, what exactly would she do? I can't see her being a "breath of fresh air" if she doesn't do anything. And why wouldn't Iris be a breath of fresh air, being that she's completely new?
There are several posibillitis for her to do which would serve as visible indicator that she is making progress toward her goal.
Tournaments similar to Whirl Cup,underwater battles,water races,pokemon catching contests etc are just few out of whole spectar of options which she could do_Of course there may have been something completely new depending on what writers would decide to do with whole thing,and it would give opportunity to learn more about Mistys backstory(like what happened with parents),aswell hanging up in air possible introduction of rivals which would pose a treat for her quest.

Of course its not to expect her receiving same amount of screentime like Dawn for example did,but for good development and for character to do something large doze of screentime isnt necessary with quality playing importance not quantity.

As much as I liked Misty back in the day, I wouldn't be happy with her return; because she would only natter on about water Pokemon and Togepitic while Ash could be having a battle.
Misty did things during her run,its just they didnt happened often enough.

But back on subject:
There are several reasons why Misty would be handled better nowdays,being more active.
-First writing has improved alot since Kanto days,only a fool would try to deny that which means character and his pokemon getting treated better.
-considering writers themself admitted how they didnt developed Misty enough(more specifically head writer himself) during her time means hey acknowledged some incorrections which were done,meaning they would make sure to correct them if second chance was given to character.
-if character who was absent for more than 7 years is brought back it doesnt happen without prepared reason and arc giving him something to do having purpose in this show.Point is writers wouldnt bring her back just for the sake of it.

In end i respect your opinion if you wouldnt like that Misty returns,but many people would and its little unfair to judge and assume things about characters without even considering to give it a chance(everyone deserves it) if it ever happens which most likely unfortunately wont.
 
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