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Will Iris beating Cynthia create the worse backlash ever?

Is the backlash gonna be the worse?


  • Total voters
    71

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

2022 STANLEY CUP CHAMPS!
Imo the Kalos League backlash was the biggest in the whole franchise, yes, bigger than Dexit, Electric Soldier Porygon, etc
How do you **** something up that bad?
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel like it's kinda similar to the whole deal with mythicals/legendaries, in that for a VERY long time the show didn't budge with these guys, the champions and Elite Four were always this greater scope that the main cast couldn't hope to match. Only Diantha all the way in XY was shown to be "mortal" and the fact it was to hype for Ash's "victory" left people a bit cynical about that one. And yet now suddenly EVERYTHING is free game.

I definitely feel like JN could have done with tracking Iris' performance more, even just an extra episode or two showing what she's achieved.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
I feel like it's kinda similar to the whole deal with mythicals/legendaries, in that for a VERY long time the show didn't budge with these guys, the champions and Elite Four were always this greater scope that the main cast couldn't hope to match. Only Diantha all the way in XY was shown to be "mortal" and the fact it was to hype for Ash's "victory" left people a bit cynical about that one. And yet now suddenly EVERYTHING is free game.

I definitely feel like JN could have done with tracking Iris' performance more, even just an extra episode or two showing what she's achieved.

I think I get it, all things have to end eventually, but perhaps the transition was too fast.

Either way Greninja started it.
 

Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
The problem is more that the "transition" has consisted of a bunch of awkward retcons telling you that all those scenes across all those years showing exactly how strong Trainers the Champions are were a lie, and that they're actually on the same level as your average gym leader. We're supposed to consider him being "champion tier" impressive, but the series is actively telling us he's been "champion tier" for ages.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
My issue is generally how poorly structured this story is. If we had actually taken the energy to structure the story and see some level of story progression, then we can appreciate characters getting to where they are. Instead, we are left filling the gaps ourselves, some bordering on TV Tropes levels of Wild Mass Guessing.
 

mehmeh1

Simple and Clean
Imo the Kalos League backlash was the biggest in the whole franchise, yes, bigger than Dexit, Electric Soldier Porygon, etc
How do you **** something up that bad?
Nah like the one above me says ESP literally caused harm to the viewers, literally got legally banned, and AFAIK is the reason why a lot of anime dim the brightness when there are a lot of colors onscreen. And Dexit was also really harsh, with people giving up on the whole franchise (tho didn't really impact sales 'cause the Switch gives tons of franchises big pushes, just talking about fandom reception) and lots of hate videos (+ some channels) appearing.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Magical Girl
No. The Porygon incident caused medical problems for people and caused the anime to be taken off air for weeks in Japan. That's worse than a bad match outcome.
I don't even know what they were thinking with that episode, but then again it was the 90s and other anime like early dbz had similar effects
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
The problem is more that the "transition" has consisted of a bunch of awkward retcons telling you that all those scenes across all those years showing exactly how strong Trainers the Champions are were a lie, and that they're actually on the same level as your average gym leader. We're supposed to consider him being "champion tier" impressive, but the series is actively telling us he's been "champion tier" for ages.

There probably wouldn't be retcons if the writers didn't hit Ash with the reset button so much.

Because of the narrative focusing on Ash and his underdog status, you could easily look at champions and elite 4 members as people he'd never touch let alone beat, because he was never allowed to really grow to a point where it seemed possible, but as time went on and he got more league experience under his belt those restraints began to break, and starting with Greninja beating the daylights out of Diantha's Mega Gardevoir, even though he didn't win that battle that was when things started to shatter.

He may be using new pokemon, but Journeys is the first series to allow Ash to battle at a higher level he's never been allowed to fight at, because of that it changes the perspective of others as well, such as how champions are perceived
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
the more I see of leon and think about it, he almost feels like a combo of Ash and Alain, Ash's personality, but has Alain's "OP" feeling, even has the same ace just with a different gimmick.

Can someone really be considered all powerful just by one pokemon alone? Cause what's the point of even having other pokemon if only 1 you have matters?

Alain did do one thing if nothing else, he chipped Leon by beating his Rilaboom, if Leon was truly meant to be unbeatable I feel that Alain wouldn't have knocked out any of his pokemon period.

But his Charizard took out Rilaboom un-mega'ed while it had the Dyna boosts in one strike, even with type advantage that is still a feet.

As for the current discussion, like @Ignition i'm wondering why people want this "backlash" all of a sudden
I disagree. I wouldn't compare Alain to Leon. Yes, Alain was a trainer with unbearable feats when compared to High Tier veteran trainers like Ash, Paul and even Tobias. However, Regional Champions were indicated to be one tier above based on Alain's fight with Steven.

Leon is someone who was shown to be even above all these Regional Champions which was a very big deal. Unlike keeping him as the Galar Champion like in the games, the anime took a different route making him far more impressive.

Why do you assume the rest of Leon's Pokemon are "Weak"?
Did you forget that one of Leon's pokemon was taken out by the ace of one of Strongest Trainer in the World?

So that by no means suggests rest of Leon's team is weak.
Unlike the case of Alain where his whole goal was primarily centered around being stronger with Charizard (Pre Journeys), this isn't the case for Leon.

Leon seems more like Ash. Powerful trainer with a Well Balanced team who also has a powerful ace.
I think it's fair to say that this more or less applies to all the members of the Master Class.
 

xtroDe

Member
Beating some clowns in Alola didn’t make him a champion tier trainer. He reached E4 level in Kalos and rose to champion level in JN
bro u saying as if that z pikachu move wouldnt overkill other champion's ace, i dont think anyone has survived that **** in the anime and even tapu koko as well, so it's fair to assume ash is champion level in alola

and rest of his party is solid too bar rowlet
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
bro u saying as if that z pikachu move wouldnt overkill other champion's ace, i dont think anyone has survived that **** in the anime and even tapu koko as well, so it's fair to assume ash is champion level in alola

and rest of his party is solid too bar rowlet
Again, Ash had no feats in Alola that would indicate that he is stronger than in Kalos. He stayed at the same level. And he wasn’t champion level in Kalos.
 

xtroDe

Member
also to those 30 people who voted yes, do you think this "outrage" can top this: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/down-to-the-fiery-finish-934.652919/
this **** is radioactive to THIS day

this is M8, i wouldn't be surprised if this is a really close battle between these two... well, alain jobbed hard but it was against Leon and you could say he lacked drive to be stronger after he saved chespin

the only problem is not showing iris' progress to championship and being on par with cynthia, which is understandable
 
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xtroDe

Member
Triple Posting
on a serious note, idk i feel like the writers did want to depict ash as champion level by the end of Alola but.. no one was renowned as champion tier in alola LOL
and so we had to make do with prof kukui (great dad btw and very nice battle) and they even substituted his last mon with a legendary as a final trial for ash

of course, this is all but a speculation, even people trying to discredit alola league filled with weak trainers are speculating, as we have no way of knowing if they are better or worse than trainers from other leagues

so im going by the simple logic of: regional league win = champion level (?)
and also defeated tapu koko
 

xtroDe

Member
The Battle Frontier, Sinnoh and Kalos league feats have to be rated higher than winning a league where James reached the QF.

Also, Pikachu has defeated legendaries before.
I mean, the only notable trainer he had defeated in Kalos League was... Sawyer.

Sinnoh had it nice going with Paul being defeated. Of course, the writers had to step in by adding a self insert to stop him from winning a league.

In the same league where James reached QF, Guzma and Gladion. There's argument for both of them being highly competent trainers as well.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Cynthia isn’t going to lose to Iris any time soon. She is still difficult to defeat in BDSP even with a Fairy type to deal with her Spiritomb. You really can’t one shot her Pokémon except maybe Gastrodon because they are bulky I The HP department.
 

GLTSRY

Unova Ace Oshawott
I mean, the only notable trainer he had defeated in Kalos League was... Sawyer.

Sinnoh had it nice going with Paul being defeated. Of course, the writers had to step in by adding a self insert to stop him from winning a league.

In the same league where James reached QF, Guzma and Gladion. There's argument for both of them being highly competent trainers as well.
He defeated a ME with his regular Hawlucha, which was a big deal back then, cornered Diantha and went head-to-head with Alain, who was stronger than E4 members.

Neither Guzma, nor Gladion are on the same level as Paul, Sawyer or Alain, let alone stronger than them.

Ash surpassed his Kalos/SM level when he defeated Iris, Wallace and Drasna (the latter with the weaker members of his current team).
 

xtroDe

Member
He defeated a ME with his regular Hawlucha, which was a big deal back then, cornered Diantha and went head-to-head with Alain, who was stronger than E4 members.

Neither Guzma, nor Gladion are on the same level as Paul, Sawyer or Alain, let alone stronger than them.

Ash surpassed his Kalos/SM level when he defeated Iris, Wallace and Drasna (the latter with the weaker members of his current team).
I mean, technically going by type advantage Hawlucha should have had this. Writing wise, I literally forgot this match up existed because it was written at the beginning of an episode in 1v1? The anime would have hyped up ME if it was uber tier threat. There are many megas that job quite often in the anime too.

Also Diantha was basically holding back and was on the defensive to learn more about AG. If AG was truly busted then we would have seen Ash battling E4 and Champion, not jobbing to MCX~

also, all that trainer strength is your speculation mate, the anime doesn't even try to make it clear about their power level

which makes sense since this anime is made for toddlers in a country named japan, this show's writing isn't meant to be taken seriously, nor are their power levels
 
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