Without Speed Boost, Blaziken's not Uber

[irock245]

Originally Posted by epic_eevee
Honestly, Mutsumi, it seems like your entire argument has been ripped apart a half dozen times and yet you continue to argue it. We're all basically just coming to the conclusion that you're just sad that your favorite 'mon got banned, so would you mind just reading the arguments and then accepting them rather than continually arguing a moot point that you haven't properly thought through and you're the only one supporting? Thanks.

Yea i'm pretty sure mutsumi's favorite pokemon is volcarona. Just guessing.

Anyway, like i said, CONGRATULATIONS, MUTSUMI. YOU PUT US BACK AS *****ING ABOUT STUPID ****ING COMPLEX BANS. WILL YOU EVER STOP? Blaziken is banned, deal with it. You are pretty much suggesting the same thing you did in an earlier thread. How come I see you argue with everyone on almost every thread? The pokesav one, the wifi blaziken one, and now this. Oh and i'm pretty sure that dignified people know when to stop arguing when their ideas keep being rejected, eh chap?

 

[Blue Harvest]

I don't use any kind of Blaziken, so you are wrong there. Secondly, my argument has not even been dented, and nor were they in the previous thread.

When everyone disagrees with you, it generally means you're wrong. Your argument has been torn apart time and time again yet you are too blind to see it. Maybe you should take a step back and think about what everyone else is saying.

Edit: irock don't flame.

 

[irock245]

Edit: irock don't flame.

Ok, i won't, but i don't know what flaming exactly is. thats the first time i heard of it. I've only been on here for a short time, and only started to post the last 2 months cuz of school getting in my way before.

And yeah, i agree with this.

When everyone disagrees with you, it generally means you're wrong. Your argument has been torn apart time and time again yet you are too blind to see it. Maybe you should take a step back and think about what everyone else is saying.

Edit:Oh i saw the notification. I see what you mean and i'll stop.

 

[Princess_Elena]

I really dislike smogon, Blaziken with Blaze ability is UU, I can understand why they banned Blaziken with speed boost ability. But question that never come out, why Haxorus is uber?

 

[Excitable Boy]

But question that never come out, why Haxorus is uber?

That would be an extraordinarily pressing issue, if not for the fact that it's not.

 

[Mutsumi]

When everyone disagrees with you, it generally means you're wrong.

1. Not everyone disagrees with me. Majority does not equal everyone.
2. Just because the majority supports one idea, it does not mean that idea is superior. Plenty of stupid things in this world have happened with the backing of a strong majority.

Everyone else: stop trying to provoke me into defending my views on this subject. I've nothing new to add, and I've heard all of your arguments and they have failed to convince me. Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[hallstromjr]

I'm just wondering, if all you want to do is agree to disagree, then what's the point of having discussion threads? Some of the smartest battlers have torn through your argument: d0nut, Blue Harvest, epic_eevee, and even regarde in that action replay thread. You ask us to view your side of the argument, and notice how everyone looks at it in a million different ways and how it gets played out to a bunch of different possibilities, but yet all you do is say our arguments dont convince you. Why not play out one of our statements for once?

 

[Mutsumi]

I'm just wondering, if all you want to do is agree to disagree, then what's the point of having discussion threads? Some of the smartest battlers have torn through your argument: d0nut, Blue Harvest, epic_eevee, and even regarde in that action replay thread. You ask us to view your side of the argument, and notice how everyone looks at it in a million different ways and how it gets played out to a bunch of different possibilities, but yet all you do is say our arguments dont convince you. Why not play out one of our statements for once?

I am pushing for an 'agree to disagree' on this subject, because I do not believe either side has anything new to add on this subject. Would you rather went around in circles again?

 

[hallstromjr]

I am pushing for an 'agree to disagree' on this subject, because I do not believe either side has anything new to add on this subject. Would you rather went around in circles again?

No I would rather you to take time and read over some of the statements people have said that are against you to see our side of the argument.

 

[Mutsumi]

No I would rather you to take time and read over some of the statements people have said that are against you to see our side of the argument.

You believe in your side of the argument so strongly that you feel that if only I took more time to look at your side, I would eventually agree with you?

Well I believe in my side of the argument so strongly that I feel that if only the rest of you would cast aside your assumptions, you would come to the realisation that I am correct.

Seems like an 'unstoppable force' meets 'immovable object' situation to me. I cannot change your mind, you cannot change my mind. That is why I think we should make peace of our discussion and agree to disagree.

Yea i'm pretty sure mutsumi's favorite pokemon is volcarona. Just guessing.

Actually, my favourite Pokémon is Meowth. I am a fan of maneki-neko, so Meowth has obvious appeal to me.

 

[TheOrder01]

You believe in your side of the argument so strongly that you feel that if only I took more time to look at your side, I would eventually agree with you?

Well I believe in my side of the argument so strongly that I feel that if only the rest of you would cast aside your assumptions, you would come to the realisation that I am correct.

Seems like an 'unstoppable force' meets 'immovable object' situation to me. I cannot change your mind, you cannot change my mind. That is why I think we should make peace of our discussion and agree to disagree.


Actually, my favourite Pokémon is Meowth. I am a fan of maneki-neko, so Meowth has obvious appeal to me.

If you came into this topic not wanting to change your mind about the issue and only wanting to be heard, then you should have left after your initial post, since there's obviously no point in this debate if you were never planning to at least explain why you felt the arguments presented to you were insufficiently convincing (and no, what you've posted so far does not constitute as that). If you came to that realisation while arguing with everyone here, then you should have left after you first told everyone that you weren't gonna be changing your mind anytime soon. Either way, the fact that you continue to post here is only perpetuating what you yourself feel is a waste of time. Don't worry, I don't plan on posting here anymore either if this still isn't going anywhere.

That being said, I myself am not gonna be so inflexible as to completely dismiss your proposals, however incorrect they may or may not be, but please explain this to me: what good would making a seperate tier for DW abilities do for the metagame? Why did you decide that said tier be created on the seemingly arbitrary basis of DW abilities, as opposed to, say, movesets? Why do you believe that having Blaze Blaziken in RU or UU (and by extension, all the other Pokémon that would be unbanned from a given tier) or whatever tier it ends up in would benefit the metagame more than the weeks or months of inevitable testing that takes time and resources away from other, more pressing matters in said metagame? I honestly do want to hear your insight on these questions, because I am all for a competitively enjoyable and diversified metagame, and I'd like to think you may have something to contribute to that.

 

[d0nut]

That being said, I myself am not gonna be so inflexible as to completely dismiss your proposals, however incorrect they may or may not be, but please explain this to me: what good would making a seperate tier for DW abilities do for the metagame? Why did you decide that said tier be created on the seemingly arbitrary basis of DW abilities, as opposed to, say, movesets? Why do you believe that having Blaze Blaziken in RU or UU (and by extension, all the other Pokémon that would be unbanned from a given tier) or whatever tier it ends up in would benefit the metagame more than the weeks or months of inevitable testing that takes time and resources away from other, more pressing matters in said metagame? I honestly do want to hear your insight on these questions, because I am all for a competitively enjoyable and diversified metagame, and I'd like to think you may have something to contribute to that.

This is also what I would like to hear. Mutsumi, you constantly have mentioned that no new evidance has been brought to the table for this recurring arguement, yet you, as of now, have absolutely no evidence versus the arguements presented by many users including myself. You simply say "it could be done" then you walk away saying "agree to disagree," but you have never given any reasons as to why this would benefit the metagame, let alone be worth spending any time on. Rather than bringing this up in every thread which even vaugely pertains to Blaziken, or any other thread which deals with the idea of a complex ban, why don't you try backing up your arguements, rather than posting an idea with nothing to back it up, then refusing to say anything else on the matter afterwards. If you enjoy bringing up pointless ideas only to have us waste our time shooting them down, then so be it, but as of right now I have yet to see any support which would convince anyone to want to support your idea. As it stands, this only really appeals to people who still can't get over the Blaziken ban, but no one who actually cares about the tiering process which is really the main crowd you need to win over if you want to bring about such a change.

 

[Mutsumi]

Rather than bringing this up in every thread which even vaugely pertains to Blaziken, or any other thread which deals with the idea of a complex ban

Don't be ridiculous, this thread is exactly the same subject as the original one, and is the only thread in which I have revisited the subject.

As for evidence, how about some evidence for your side? None of you have given any.

you have never given any reasons as to why this would benefit the metagame

My proposal would create more accurate tiers. More accurate tiers would benefit the metagame.

 

[TrollFreak]

My proposal would create more accurate tiers. More accurate tiers would benefit the metagame.

what exactly do you mean by, “accurate” teirs, because before i argue/agree with you, i want to know what exactly do you mean

 

[Mayu808]

You know, I liked blaziken and all, got me through 3rd gen pretty quickly, but why on earth would anyone complain aboutthis so much? He's banned, no one likes complex bans, that's it. I'm pretty much a noob to competitive gaming as I only started a month ago, but even I realize that tiering for all 600+ Pokemon and their regular ability, dream world ability, and second ability if they have one, is pointless. I just wanna play Pokemon and leave it at that.

Oh, and @mutsumi, I'm no debate expert, but rebutting with the same statement or saying that neither has no evidence does not make a good argument. Neither does "agree to disagree" on a discussion thread where the point is to debate.

 

[d0nut]

Don't be ridiculous, this thread is exactly the same subject as the original one, and is the only thread in which I have revisited the subject.

Then why bother when you aren't going to be saying anything different? Seems to me like you're just trying to start a flame war.

As for evidence, how about some evidence for your side? None of you have given any.

How about the posts given by myself and the other knowledgeable users of SPPf. Honestly, it seems like you don't even read our posts sometimes... Besides, you are trying to bring about a change so if anyone needs evidence it would be from you. We have already given several reasons why your idea wouldn't work, you just choose not to accept them, despite all of them being valid reasons.

My proposal would create more accurate tiers. More accurate tiers would benefit the metagame.

What's to say it would create more accurate tiers? How is adding Blaziken into the lower tiers, or any other pokemon for that matter going to improve the metagame? Accuracy is very vauge, and everyone will have different opinions on what makes tiers "accurate" so this is hardly a grounds for changing the system. Complex bans definately don't make tiers any more accurate in my books unless they are completely necessary like the SwSw + Drizzle ban.

I've been more patient with you than most users here so far... But honestly I'm starting to think you're either hopeless or just a bad troll because you seem to ignore every relavent post made which refutes your claims, and you're clearly the ONLY person who believes in what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[The Jock]

Don't be ridiculous, this thread is exactly the same subject as the original one, and is the only thread in which I have revisited the subject.

As for evidence, how about some evidence for your side? None of you have given any.


My proposal would create more accurate tiers. More accurate tiers would benefit the metagame.

More accurate tiers is a very broad and generally bad argument/suggestion. Firstly, what exactly is "accuracy" in the tiering of Pokemon? The word accuracy generally denotes an effort to conform to or a certain standard, which nulls your argument since Smogon effectively is the "standard" of competitive Pokemon. While I have my quips about the Suspect Process [mainly the results it yields] at Smogon, I'm well aware that Smogon's tiers are "as good as it will get", so to speak and their unrivaled competitive userbase shows that they have the collective knowledge to be the authority on competitive Pokemon.

You know, I liked blaziken and all, got me through 3rd gen pretty quickly, but why on earth would anyone complain aboutthis so much? He's banned, no one likes complex bans, that's it. I'm pretty much a noob to competitive gaming as I only started a month ago, but even I realize that tiering for all 600+ Pokemon and their regular ability, dream world ability, and second ability if they have one, is pointless. I just wanna play Pokemon and leave it at that.

Oh, and @mutsumi, I'm no debate expert, but rebutting with the same statement or saying that neither has no evidence does not make a good argument. Neither does "agree to disagree" on a discussion thread where the point is to debate.

"Playing Pokemon" is a bit different from playing Competitive Pokemon. The tiers have a point in that they create a stable metagame. Without, tiers we probably wouldn't be posting in this thread right now. Tiers effectively define the metagame and create variety and balance. If there were no tiers, no one would stray from using the Pokemon that now dominate the uber tier, as well as the Pokemon from lower tiers that can counter/play with said threats. Tiers draw the line between 'playing Pokemon' and battling competitively.

 

[hallstromjr]

Yes, tiers are what make this metagame stable and balanced. I feel it would just get too confusing to try and seperate the Dream World abilities and Pokemon that use them to an advantage. The simpler way of defining it is to just ban the Pokemon all together, as done with Blaziken. What other Pokemon have DW abilities that make you feel like they should be put up to Uber? Talk to us Mutsumi, instead of saying what you think, having no interest at looking at any other posts or arguments that the other users (some of the best by far) have said, and just saying "agree to disagree". This is a competative DISCUSSION thread, so discuss with us instead of implying that your idea is the best when you've barely given any evidence to back to up:

You believe in your side of the argument so strongly that you feel that if only I took more time to look at your side, I would eventually agree with you?

Well I believe in my side of the argument so strongly that I feel that if only the rest of you would cast aside your assumptions, you would come to the realisation that I am correct.

Seems like an 'unstoppable force' meets 'immovable object' situation to me. I cannot change your mind, you cannot change my mind. That is why I think we should make peace of our discussion and agree to disagree.

Actually, my favourite Pokémon is Meowth. I am a fan of maneki-neko, so Meowth has obvious appeal to me

Don't be ridiculous, this thread is exactly the same subject as the original one, and is the only thread in which I have revisited the subject.

As for evidence, how about some evidence for your side? None of you have given any.

My proposal would create more accurate tiers. More accurate tiers would benefit the metagame.

My point exactly. Now I ask you, how would one make more accurate tiers? I think they are pretty darn good right now as is. There's a lot of time and thought put in to making these tiers and proposing who should be in the Ubers category and who should not. So, how would one make more accurate tiers?

 

[MugoUrth]

Speed Boost Blaziken is the only Pokemon in the Uber tier that's actually cool. But I really don't like how somehow making it faster is enough to make it Uber, considering all it does is increase the chances of him going first.

 

[hallstromjr]

Speed Boost Blaziken is the only Pokemon in the Uber tier that's actually cool. But I really don't like how somehow making it faster is enough to make it Uber, considering all it does is increase the chances of him going first.

Raises the chances of him going first is a big deal, seeing as Fire/Fighting is a great offensive movepool and very physical. Plus it has access to Swords Dance, so after one Swords and a Speed Boost it is a deadly Pokemon.