Without Speed Boost, Blaziken's not Uber

[Kansas_Rocks!]

Raises the chances of him going first is a big deal, seeing as Fire/Fighting is a great offensive movepool and very physical. Plus it has access to Swords Dance, so after one Swords and a Speed Boost it is a deadly Pokemon.

Adding on to this, it gained an awesome STAB move in the form of Hi Jump Kick. It is just awesome now.

 

[complete legitimacy]

@Mutsumi, you're kinda like a guy who thinks he has this disease. It's been proven by the best doctors in the world that you in fact, do not have this disease. But because you believe so strongly that you do have this disease, you still get the symptoms of it. This is really because no matter who tells you just how wrong you are, nothing will change your mind.

In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned an "immovable object". In truth, YOU are this immovable object, unable to be convinced by anyone or anything. Part of this is an extreme level of self-belief, but it's mostly just pure stubbornness. Stubbornness is almost like a bad habit; it can be fixed, but that won't happen until you realize the error of your ways.

Edit: I think there's a word for what I mentioned in the first paragraph. I forget what it is though.

 

[Mayu808]

"Playing Pokemon" is a bit different from playing Competitive Pokemon. The tiers have a point in that they create a stable metagame. Without, tiers we probably wouldn't be posting in this thread right now. Tiers effectively define the metagame and create variety and balance. If there were no tiers, no one would stray from using the Pokemon that now dominate the uber tier, as well as the Pokemon from lower tiers that can counter/play with said threats. Tiers draw the line between 'playing Pokemon' and battling competitively.

I apologize, I was vague with that. I understand the difference between completive Pokemon and just playing for fun. I understand the importance of tiers, but what I meant when I said that is that I would like to not deal with more suspect rounds on Pokemon because it makes it that much harder to build a team for a tier and can a lot of the time make it more difficult to play. I am still a noob in Pokemon so correct me on anything, blacken is uber because speed boost on him is broken, and no one likes complex bans. Besides, the bigger thing is that they should ban thunderus already. That dude is broken.

 

[Mutsumi]

An example of how tiers would be more accurate under my proposal:
Blaze Blaziken does not belong in uber. My way would reflect this accurately, while the current way does not.

 

[Mayu808]

An example of how tiers would be more accurate under my proposal:
Blaze Blaziken does not belong in uber. My way would reflect this accurately, while the current way does not.

I honestly get what your trying to say, but what competitive battler in his/her right mind uses blaziken without speed boost? You've made the same argument about your "accurate tiers", but you fail to realize that that argument has been ripped apart, time and time again. I do understand that I'm new to competitive battle, but their is no need to sit through more complex bans, when they have more important things, like, as I stated earlier, thunderus.

 

[Vandslaux]

Blaziken is Uber, no matter what ability you use. Can we stop an argument that's been gone through time and time and time agian?

About Thundurus: Once he's banned, people will be DC'ing when they see mine on Random Matchup..

 

[Mutsumi]

I honestly get what your trying to say, but what competitive battler in his/her right mind uses blaziken without speed boost? You've made the same argument about your "accurate tiers", but you fail to realize that that argument has been ripped apart, time and time again.

The only cases against my argument is that the people who make the tiers cannot be bothered, and the foolish assumptions that it would lead to nerfing everything to make it usable in each tier under certain conditions.

 

[Mayu808]

The only cases against my argument is that the people who make the tiers cannot be bothered, and the foolish assumptions that it would lead to nerfing everything to make it usable in each tier under certain conditions.

Now what your doing is using yourown words to discredit the validity of the others argument. Here's a simple question, would you actually use blacken in a competitive environment?

 

[#TWERKTEAM]

The only cases against my argument is that the people who make the tiers cannot be bothered, and the foolish assumptions that it would lead to nerfing everything to make it usable in each tier under certain conditions.

The people who make the tiers can't make everyone happy which you don't seem to understand because you have some sort of idea that you're never wrong and whenever someone proves you wrong everyone has to agree to disagree.

 

[TheOrder01]

The only cases against my argument is that the people who make the tiers cannot be bothered, and the foolish assumptions that it would lead to nerfing everything to make it usable in each tier under certain conditions.

Way to oversimplify everything. You're implying that those in charge of the tiering process are lazy slobs who do what they feel like, when the reality is much more complicated than that. As it stands, suspect rounds have been ongoing since the game came out in Japan way back in September to weed out most of the broken elements, and there's no telling how much longer it could take before we reach a stable metagame, what with the controversies surrounding permanent weather, Thundurus and Excadrill. What you're suggesting is that we should overhaul the entire tier system; let's not even pretend that something this drastic would set us back years before we finally get to that stable metagame.

The one factor you don't seem to be considering at all is that practically speaking, we also want a lasting metagame, one that's not subject to wild variations, especially when it comes to figuring out which Pokémon is in which tier. The scope of the testing that your proposal requires basically demands that everyone keep up with all of the tiering judgments of all of the Pokémon affected by the process in order to continue playing competitively, which is most of them. And when that takes years, then that ends up being years that could have been played in a more stable and enjoyable metagame than the volatile one we have now.

I also want to point out that creating a separate tier for DW Pokémon is very much nerfing them: by definition, a nerf is when one arbitrarily prevents something from having access to an aspect they would normally and legally be allowed to have, which is what happens when we prevent a Pokémon from having a DW ability. It's not an assumption that your proposal would lead to mass nerfing either, because we're not saying that we think that we will end up nerfing everything, we're saying that we have to nerf everything. Doing otherwise would set a huge double standard in that we'd choose to nerf Blaziken by only allowing Blaze variants in the lower tiers, but not bothering to test out a nerfed (i.e., no Manaphy + Drizzle Politoed on the same team) version of Manaphy, for instance.

Once again, I ask: does having Blaze Blaziken (and I presume a number of other Pokémon, because otherwise, that would be blind favoritism on your end and you might as well admit that you just want to use Blaziken outside of Ubers and don't care at all about anything else...) in the lower tiers really contribute enough to the enjoyability of the metagame that testing your proposal would be worth the investment of dozens, if not hundreds of people's time? All I want at this point is a yes or no answer to the above, if only to get a sense of the motivations behind your proposal.

 

[irock245]

Then why bother when you aren't going to be saying anything different? Seems to me like you're just trying to start a flame war.

Yea i kinda did that on the beginning of the 3rd page.....

The only cases against my argument is that the people who make the tiers cannot be bothered, and the foolish assumptions that it would lead to nerfing everything to make it usable in each tier under certain conditions.

Yea dude your case isn't gonna be given a damn by smogon unless you are one of the admins or mods there or something like that. If i said, "oh magikarp is broken in LC(which it's not), we should ban it to ubers," (which i would never say anyway), smogon wouldn't really listen unless i was a admin or something like that. The only other way for that to happen is if one of them notices it on their own, which they would. So unless a smogon admin thinks the same way you do, or you get enough supporters(which you don't,unfortunatly) your idea won't even be considered. So complain all you want, it won't happen. And have you forgotton? You have a DW tier on PO, although it sucks, you technically have what you want, so stop complaining. At least see my reasoning(hopefully explained well enough on here) before youstay on your side. Oh, and all of us back on what we think SMOGON WOULD THINK OF YOUR IDEA based on what they have done beofre. Oh, and I think smogon has said something that they don't want complex bans like that on their tiering system.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

A pokemon is banned what what kind of abilities they have and if there fair.

 

[hallstromjr]

Way to oversimplify everything. You're implying that those in charge of the tiering process are lazy slobs who do what they feel like, when the reality is much more complicated than that. As it stands, suspect rounds have been ongoing since the game came out in Japan way back in September to weed out most of the broken elements, and there's no telling how much longer it could take before we reach a stable metagame, what with the controversies surrounding permanent weather, Thundurus and Excadrill. What you're suggesting is that we should overhaul the entire tier system; let's not even pretend that something this drastic would set us back years before we finally get to that stable metagame.

The one factor you don't seem to be considering at all is that practically speaking, we also want a lasting metagame, one that's not subject to wild variations, especially when it comes to figuring out which Pokémon is in which tier. The scope of the testing that your proposal requires basically demands that everyone keep up with all of the tiering judgments of all of the Pokémon affected by the process in order to continue playing competitively, which is most of them. And when that takes years, then that ends up being years that could have been played in a more stable and enjoyable metagame than the volatile one we have now.

I also want to point out that creating a separate tier for DW Pokémon is very much nerfing them: by definition, a nerf is when one arbitrarily prevents something from having access to an aspect they would normally and legally be allowed to have, which is what happens when we prevent a Pokémon from having a DW ability. It's not an assumption that your proposal would lead to mass nerfing either, because we're not saying that we think that we will end up nerfing everything, we're saying that we have to nerf everything. Doing otherwise would set a huge double standard in that we'd choose to nerf Blaziken by only allowing Blaze variants in the lower tiers, but not bothering to test out a nerfed (i.e., no Manaphy + Drizzle Politoed on the same team) version of Manaphy, for instance.

Once again, I ask: does having Blaze Blaziken (and I presume a number of other Pokémon, because otherwise, that would be blind favoritism on your end and you might as well admit that you just want to use Blaziken outside of Ubers and don't care at all about anything else...) in the lower tiers really contribute enough to the enjoyability of the metagame that testing your proposal would be worth the investment of dozens, if not hundreds of people's time? All I want at this point is a yes or no answer to the above, if only to get a sense of the motivations behind your proposal.

This is a fair sum up of what everyone is telling you Mutsumi. Take a chance to look at the other side of things. The third paragraph is what we are all trying to tell you in a nice way, but wait, here comes the "Just agree to disagree", or "My idea is foolproof, you're statements mean absolutely nothing." Just look at the other side is all we ask.

And you said "Blaze Blaziken does not belong in Uber" as you're example on how to make a whole new tiering system. What is exactly "your way" thats so foolproof? Does Zekrom still stay in Ubers? How about Nidoking with Sheer Force? Does that go into Ubers because Sheer Force is too broken? What about the perma weather Pokemon, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Thunderus, Contrary Serperior, Solar Power Charizard, I mean do you have the time to go through all 649 Pokemon and roughly 200 abilities to redo the whole tiering process? How many years that take? Two maybe three? And you cant say "Oh we already have the regular one you just need to make the DW one." Umm, the one we have right now includes DW abilities, so you're gonna have to start from scratch.

 

[Mutsumi]

the one we have right now includes DW abilities, so you're gonna have to start from scratch.

Oh really?

http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?5270-Gen-5-Tier-List

There is a DW tier, and below it a normal tier. Most of the work is done. All that remains is to consider the placement in the DW tier of Pokémon whose DW ability is less good than their normal one, such as Garchomp.

 

[windsong]

Smogon doesn't keep DW stats and they don't go off of PO's since their tier lists are different you fool.

Please, Mutsumi, read what people are saying, and if your only way of countering their solid arguments is to say "we'll have to agree to disagree", just get out of this thread as you aren't giving anything to the discussion whatsoever. Because honestly, that's all I've heard from you -- you mentioned one idea, people came up with reasons why it would be inefficient, and you had absolutely no argument to counter those reasons and thus resorted to just repeating your original argument over and over.

You're not convincing anyone at this point, you're just pissing everyone off.

 

[The Jock]

An example of how tiers would be more accurate under my proposal:
Blaze Blaziken does not belong in uber. My way would reflect this accurately, while the current way does not.

Banning only Speed Boost Blaziken is an example of a Complex Ban, which is exactly what Smogon is trying to avoid during each suspect process.

Yea i kinda did that on the beginning of the 3rd page.....



Yea dude your case isn't gonna be given a damn by smogon unless you are one of the admins or mods there or something like that. If i said, "oh magikarp is broken in LC(which it's not), we should ban it to ubers," (which i would never say anyway), smogon wouldn't really listen unless i was a admin or something like that. The only other way for that to happen is if one of them notices it on their own, which they would. So unless a smogon admin thinks the same way you do, or you get enough supporters(which you don't,unfortunatly) your idea won't even be considered. So complain all you want, it won't happen. And have you forgotton? You have a DW tier on PO, although it sucks, you technically have what you want, so stop complaining. At least see my reasoning(hopefully explained well enough on here) before youstay on your side. Oh, and all of us back on what we think SMOGON WOULD THINK OF YOUR IDEA based on what they have done beofre. Oh, and I think smogon has said something that they don't want complex bans like that on their tiering system.

This isn't 2005, being an admin or a moderator at Smogon doesn't give you the right to nominate or vote for a Pokemon to be banned. In fact, no one person at Smogon effectively has the "power" to ban a suspect on their own. If someone were to do so, it would go against the suspect process of the 5th generation.

 

[Mutsumi]

Smogon doesn't keep DW stats and they don't go off of PO's since their tier lists are different you fool.

Please, Mutsumi, read what people are saying, and if your only way of countering their solid arguments is to say "we'll have to agree to disagree", just get out of this thread as you aren't giving anything to the discussion whatsoever. Because honestly, that's all I've heard from you -- you mentioned one idea, people came up with reasons why it would be inefficient, and you had absolutely no argument to counter those reasons and thus resorted to just repeating your original argument over and over.

You're not convincing anyone at this point, you're just pissing everyone off.

Now now, no need to lose your cool over this. You've shown me you are plenty capable of civil discussion with me on our VMs.

Perhaps Smogon should get their act together and take note of PO. Hell, Smogon haven't even properly updated their website since 4th gen.

I still disagree with these 'reasons' others have claimed.

 

[Moneyy]

Wasn't it UU last gen? I'm not surprised by this at all. He must have had some great improvements this gen if he should still be uber without speed boost.

 

[TheOrder01]

Now now, no need to lose your cool over this. You've shown me you are plenty capable of civil discussion with me on our VMs.

Perhaps Smogon should get their act together and take note of PO. Hell, Smogon haven't even properly updated their website since 4th gen.

I still disagree with these 'reasons' others have claimed.

I still disagree with these 'reasons' others have claimed.

Because...?

At this point, I don't even care about trying to convince you, my previous posts (which you still haven't addressed in any substantial way, I might add) should encompass most of what had to be said on my end. The only thing left I want is a post from you actually explaining how your proposal would ultimately benefit the metagame. The whole point of a discussion thread to exchange ideas, and I feel that you haven't held up your end of the bargain beyond a rough outline that doesn't seem to benefit anyone besides the very small minority of competitive players who play on Smogon's server (and not any other's, otherwise they have no reason to be obligated to abide by Smogon's rulings) who really want to use Blaziken in the lower tiers.

Also, your claim that Smogon hasn't updated their site is an outright lie; they've started to put up articles for Pokémon Black & White in the past couple weeks. And I hope you realize a thinly veiled shot at them does nothing to help your position anyway.

 

[windsong]

Now now, no need to lose your cool over this. You've shown me you are plenty capable of civil discussion with me on our VMs.

Perhaps Smogon should get their act together and take note of PO. Hell, Smogon haven't even properly updated their website since 4th gen.

I still disagree with these 'reasons' others have claimed.

Perhaps you should join smogon and read their main site occasionally, to notice that there are actually quite reasonable reasons why their updates lately haven't been quite as frequent as they might have been (for example, R_D who hosts the servers was unable to access them at one point, iirc). As stated by user TheOrder01, making shots at Smogon is doing absolutely nothing to improve your already nonexistent argument.

edit: and the shot you made against me about not being "civil", so to speak, if, even after multiple people trying to get you to at least support your points, you're still behaving like an utter fool, you risk being called out as one. Deal with it.

I still disagree with these 'reasons' others have claimed.

Because...?

At this point, I don't even care about trying to convince you, my previous posts (which you still haven't addressed in any substantial way, I might add) should encompass most of what had to be said on my end. The only thing left I want is a post from you actually explaining how your proposal would ultimately benefit the metagame. The whole point of a discussion thread to exchange ideas, and I feel that you haven't held up your end of the bargain beyond a rough outline that doesn't seem to benefit anyone besides the very small minority of competitive players who play on Smogon's server (and not any other's, otherwise they have no reason to be obligated to abide by Smogon's rulings) who really want to use Blaziken in the lower tiers.

Also, your claim that Smogon hasn't updated their site is an outright lie; they've started to put up articles for Pokémon Black & White in the past couple weeks. And I hope you realize a thinly veiled shot at them does nothing to help your position anyway.

^ that post sums up my thoughts beautifully. Please, Mutsumi, read it and his earlier posts thoroughly and actually acknowledge them before posting again.