Would Ash really lose the Kalos League?

[Jeal]

It was weird. Since the end of BW, they have acted as if the Kalos League would finally be Ash's great victory. But we know what happened.

BW142: My dream, Pokémon Master!

- Ash reflects on his dream, remembers his friends and how they are working hard to reach theirs, and reaffirms that he will be a Pokemon Master.

- His mother shows visible sadness when he says he is going to travel again.

- Ash promises his mother that he will win the league this time.

- Ash says that he needs to get stronger.

Road to Kalos - a special about Ash's previous travels. I'm not sure, but I think they never did that at the beginning of a saga before.

XY001:We've Arrived in the Kalos Region! The Beginning of Dreams and Adventures!!

- Ash tells Viola that he wants to win a league this time.

XY040: Ash talks with Serena about his dream, saying that he is still a long way from achieving with the effort he is making, and that he needs to get stronger.

XY118: Satoshi VS Champion Carnet! VS Mega Sirnight!!

- Ash nearly defeats Diantha.

XY125: The Kalos League Begins! The Mega Lizardon Showdown: X VS Y!!

Ash faces a trainer who couldn't collect all the badges and promises to win the league.

The orange shuriken.

So, what do you think? Did they change their mind?

 

[Red and Blue]

Who knows? Maybe they just decided to have his first League victory concide with the generation celebrating the franchise's anniversary instead of XY. Might have been a last minute change


In a way he did get something out of the Kalos league since he made runner up.

 

[Zoruagible]

With the way they had set everything up, yes he should have won.

He lost against Zard X over and over and over and over... and almost KO'd Gardevoir!
All of it felt pointless and like a waste of time, it was obvious he'd lose Unova so I honestly don't care about Cameron beating him but XY was just bullshit. He should have won, especially as now he's walking around with a champion title with no problem!
And I'm far from being an XY(Z) fanboy, before somebody gets smart about this. That series had a lot of potential with Ash, Noivern, Serena, and Team Rocket but blew it all!

 

[Leonhart]

I personally wouldn't put any emphasis on what Satoshi promises to accomplish, because most of the time his promises mean nothing. That said, I do think that realistically speaking he had a very good chance to beat Alain at the Kalos League if the status quo hadn't intervened at the time. But I'm not particularly vexed by Satoshi's Kalos League loss since at the time I just wanted that tournament to be over with so that the Flare-dan finale would start.

 

[Dragalge]

Considering how rushed the Kalos League was, it was obvious that the Team Flare five-parter was the actual event rather than Ash winning a league.

Doesn’t help the dream crusher joined the league for a reason that could have happened by asking Ash directly elsewhere to battle.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

He was destined to lose from the beginning

 

[Epicocity]

Considering how rushed the Kalos League was, it was obvious that the Team Flare five-parter was the actual event rather than Ash winning a league.

Doesn’t help the dream crusher joined the league for a reason that could have happened by asking Ash directly elsewhere to battle.

Yes...joining a League that has a lot of Mega Evolution users so he can collect Mega Evolution energy could have happened by asking Ash to battle elsewhere...

Come on guys! It's like you don't even try to read what the characters actually say in the episodes. Alain explicitly mentions both reasons for joining the League.

 

[Sham]

Yes...joining a League that has a lot of Mega Evolution users so he can collect Mega Evolution energy could have happened by asking Ash to battle elsewhere...

Come on guys! It's like you don't even try to read what the characters actually say in the episodes. Alain explicitly mentions both reasons for joining the League.

Doesn’t take away from the fact said character still collected those amount of badges that Ash got in three.... let’s call them “seasons” in less than thirty episodes. OP Charizard or not it still made Ash look like a mess that a character collected badges in less than half the time he did despite the fact he had no intentions on joining prior until the last hour.

 

[Power Up]

Doesn’t take away from the fact said character still collected those amount of badges that Ash got in three.... let’s call them “seasons” in less than thirty episodes. OP Charizard or not it still made Ash look like a mess that a character collected badges in less than half the time he did despite the fact he had no intentions on joining prior until the last hour.

Yes, and I’m sure that Alain was busy with his companions having other goals in mind like Master Class tournaments.

And that isn’t even half of it lol.

 

[Sham]

Yes, and I’m sure that Alain was busy with his companions having other goals in mind like Master Class tournaments.

Serena competed in a total of five Showcases (six if you count the Master Class) and the entire thing was concluded in 53 episodes out of 125 episodes (counting when the League started). You’re free to pretend that Serena’s competitions heavily disabled Ash despite the fact he started his badge collecting way before Showcases even debuted. It was bad writing.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Doesn’t take away from the fact said character still collected those amount of badges that Ash got in three.... let’s call them “seasons” in less than thirty episodes. OP Charizard or not it still made Ash look like a mess that a character collected badges in less than half the time he did despite the fact he had no intentions on joining prior until the last hour.

Alain won his badges in 7 EPISODES, that's even worse

 

[Power Up]

Serena competed in a total of five Showcases (six if you count the Master Class) and the entire thing was concluded in 53 episodes out of 125 episodes (counting when the League started). You’re free to pretend that Serena’s competitions heavily disabled Ash despite the fact he started his badge collecting way before Showcases even debuted. It was bad writing.

Oh sure, sure, having four people with competing goals and interests definitely in no shape or form was an impediment. I’m sure needing to juggle around different plot lines and character arcs was in no way a major factor in why Alain may have been much faster than Ash. I’m 100% sure four people that needing to walk around places a majority of time with the added bonus of a child in tow versus being a singular person with a flying Pokemon played no part in differences of speed.

Really, how many straws do you have left to grasp? You must be running out soon right?

I too wish more screen time was dedicated to Alain pursuing the badge quest, but considering that Alain was given 4 dedicated special episodes, I can see the reasoning behind what was done

 

[Sham]

Oh sure, sure, having four people with competing goals and interests definitely in no shape or form was an impediment. I’m sure needing to juggle around different plot lines and character arcs was in no way a major factor in why Alain may have been much faster than Ash. I’m 100% sure that needing to walk around places a majority of time versus being a singular person with a flying Pokemon played no part in differences of speed.

Really, how many straws do you have left to grasp? You must be running out soon right?

Except only two out of four of them had active goals that involved competition. Bringing up the fact the writers have to juggle difference arcs and plots is an external thing and doesn’t make up for things that go on internally in the series. Saying “the cast had to be developed” isn’t a valid excuse. They either should of shown him competing before XYZ or never brought it up in the first place and made it a surprise. Welp I’m done arguing about trivial stuff soooo peace

 

[RafaSceptile]

Oh sure, sure, having four people with competing goals and interests definitely in no shape or form was an impediment. I’m sure needing to juggle around different plot lines and character arcs was in no way a major factor in why Alain may have been much faster than Ash. I’m 100% sure that needing to walk around places a majority of time versus being a singular person with a flying Pokemon played no part in differences of speed.

Really, how many straws do you have left to grasp? You must be running out soon right?

18 episodes between Ash's first and second badges without anything about Serena, Clemont or Bonnie's goals

 

[Power Up]

Except only two out four of them had active goals that involved competition. Bringing up the fact the writers have to juggle difference arcs and plots is an external thing and doesn’t make up for things the go on internally in the series. Saying “the cast had to be developed” isn’t a valid excuse. They either should of shown him competing before XYZ or never brought it up in the first place and made it a surprise. Welp I’m done arguing about trivial stuff soooo peace

Relentlessly perpetuates false ideas, then goes on to say “ no excuse “ for anything with just about zero justification, and then a quick dash to the sidelines.

It’s pretty much clockwork at this point

18 episodes between Ash's first and second badges without anything about Serena, Clemont or Bonnie's goals

If you take issue with fillers and padding, I agree with you buddy, unfortunately fixing structural problems inherent to long-form anime series like Pokémon even with Yajima specifically wanting to cut down on fillers is hard task, but I’m sure this is only an XY issue for you and not one every series since OS has indulged in.

But yes, bad writing indeed.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Here's another take: Alain was quick to get badges because he could count on TF's resources. Namely, private jets that would make it go from one gym to another fairly fast while Ash had to go by foot.

As for the thread's theme, honestly I feel like the TF arc was written with the idea that Ash would win the league. I mean, Lysandre showing off Ash and his pokémon unconscious and hanging on what could look like crucification (!) carries a lot more weight if you think it was the league champion there. Like, we have the runner OP guy (Alain) being revealed as the baddie's pawn while the only guy who could beat him was knocked down.

 

[Power Up]

Here's another take: Alain was quick to get badges because he could count on TF's resources. Namely, private jets that would make it go from one gym to another fairly fast while Ash had to go by foot.

As for the thread's theme, honestly I feel like the TF arc was written with the idea that Ash would win the league. I mean, Lysandre showing off Ash and his pokémon unconscious and hanging on what could look like crucification (!) carries a lot more weight if you think it was the league champion there. Like, we have the runner OP guy (Alain) being revealed as the baddie's pawn while the only guy who could beat him was knocked down.

I think it was planned for Ash to win as well tbh, I’ve always thought that. It’s sad with the way it played out in reality, but it is what it is.

I greatly wish for an interview with Yajima explaining the league loss. To this day, it’s one of the events in Pokémon that made the least sense considering the ample amount of narrative build-up and the very nature of how XY and XY Ash were portrayed. Not including all the other plentiful reasons as outlined in the OP

 

[BabaVanga]

I doubt they planned him to win the league. It might have looked like that, but at the end the moral was the league win wasn't that important in the grand scheme of things, as he got his moral victory in the Team Flare arc. Alain's character wouldn't make much sense if he was involved in TF shenanigans AND got defeated by Ash.

Yes, and I’m sure that Alain was busy with his companions having other goals in mind like Master Class tournaments.

Master Class tournament ended before Alain even started getting badges.

 

[Power Up]

I doubt they planned him to win the league. It might have looked like that, but at the end the moral was the league win wasn't that important in the grand scheme of things, as he got his moral victory in the Team Flare arc. Alain's character wouldn't make much sense if he was involved in TF shenanigans AND got defeated by Ash.

Master Class tournament ended before Alain even started getting badges.

I think there’s a lot more narrative substance leading to a potential Ash win.

I don’t think you’re understanding what I was saying there. What I’m saying is that Ash’s gym quest is longer for narrative reasons because he doesn’t have screen time to himself and other characters and plot arcs exist, as already outlined, making it much more difficult for him to wrack up gym wins in quick succession. The timeline isn’t the problem, it’s how the Pokémon “ story “ is built in the first place. That of course, is the other factor being the inherent structural problems prevalent in every season of the anime, even a series with the director specifically cutting down on filler couldn’t fix it.

These are two of the major reasons why comparing Ash’s gym quest to Alain’s gym quest is already based on the false premise that they’re really comparable.

I wish that Pokémon was 50-65 or so episodes, but it’s 3 times that in reality so we have to deal with padding and fillers.

Boiling it down to bad writing misses the forest for the trees

 

[BabaVanga]

I don’t think you’re understanding what I was saying there. What I’m saying is that Ash’s gym quest is longer for narrative reasons because he doesn’t have screen time to himself and other characters and plot arcs exist, as already outlined, making it much more difficult for him to wrack up gym wins in quick succession. The timeline isn’t the problem, it’s how the Pokémon “ story “ is built in the first place. That of course, is the other factor being the inherent structural problems prevalent in every season of the anime, even a series with the director specifically cutting down on filler couldn’t fix it.

These are two of the major reasons why comparing Ash’s gym quest to Alain’s gym quest is already based on the false premise that they’re really comparable.

I wish that Pokémon was 50-65 or so episodes, but it’s 3 times that in reality so we have to deal with padding and fillers.

Boiling it down to bad writing misses the forest for the trees

I understand why Ash's gym quest was longer than Alain's, it's in character for him to get distracted by his companions' goals or even CotD problems. The issue is with Alain. He got his 8 badges in time Ash travelled to Snowbelle City and back to Lumiose, that's way too fast evein if we consider he could've travelled on Charizard/in private jet and there was a timeskip between Ash's gym battle and the league.