Would Ash really lose the Kalos League?

[CMButch]

In the same series Ash's Pikachu had problems against a Magikarp and defeated a Latios

Learn what Peakachu and Pikachu is. Pekachu obviously has some kind of upgrade when it comes to multiple regions like OS -> AG -> BF -> DP -> XY( btw Peakachu : Peak aka EoS Pikachu). While Pikachu is always reset and non-consistent.

No, not really. This ain't Dragon Ball power levels nonsense. With the right strategy and mind, even a team of Magikarp can bring down Champion Leon.

Not really. 1. DB PLs are not nonsense. It all depends on the right logic and rightful thinking.
2. If those Magikarp are Champion level they would beat Champion Base Zard in 6 vs 1...

 

[Epicocity]

Then that's a case of telling not showing. Steven proved consistently throughout the series he could defend himself in dire situations. Diantha did not.

Also for your second point, you're ignoring the context that Gardevoir clearly was taking the battle seriously after it was forced to Mega Evolve, if not earlier. It still couldn't get a single hit in. If it was still testing Greninja then that's even more evidence of how bad she is at adapting.

I don't think you understand what "show, don't tell" means, if you're taking Diantha and Steven standing back-to-back and being the only two trainers to not succumb to the Megalith as "telling the audience she isn't as proven". For one, it's clearly showing. But two, just because this is the only world-ending scenario we see her in doesn't mean that Champions are unequal. The show pretty much puts all Champions on the same level as one another, and anyone who claims Diantha is the weakest Champion is just someone with a bias against XY.

 

[Shayminslicker]

If I were to look at this from the show's perspective Ash would've won if he didn't say anything about the league to Alan at all. The only reason Alan even joined the league was to battle Ash.

 

[Leonhart]

If I were to look at this from the show's perspective Ash would've won if he didn't say anything about the league to Alan at all. The only reason Alan even joined the league was to battle Ash.

I do sort of appreciate the irony in Satoshi telling his future "dream killer" about the very tournament that he'd eventually lose in due to said character's involvement. It's almost poetic.

 

[Blastmaster]

I don't think you understand what "show, don't tell" means, if you're taking Diantha and Steven standing back-to-back and being the only two trainers to not succumb to the Megalith as "telling the audience she isn't as proven". For one, it's clearly showing. But two, just because this is the only world-ending scenario we see her in doesn't mean that Champions are unequal. The show pretty much puts all Champions on the same level as one another, and anyone who claims Diantha is the weakest Champion is just someone with a bias against XY.

You don't need to nitpick the hell out of my word choices. You're smart, I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant. It's "tell don't show" on the same level of Braixen somehow being comparable to Pikachu despite the fact that Serena doesn't battle. Or for a non-XY example, baby Pokemon like Axew that got random instances of being good in battle despite going right back to being babied. The Kalos Champ and E4 have no sense of consistent impressiveness.

 

[Epicocity]

You don't need to nitpick the hell out of my word choices. You're smart, I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant. It's "tell don't show" on the same level of Braixen somehow being comparable to Pikachu despite the fact that Serena doesn't battle. Or for a non-XY example, baby Pokemon like Axew that got random instances of being good in battle despite going right back to being babied. The Kalos Champ has E4 have no sense of consistent impressiveness.

Except, 1) None of this is telling. We only have Diantha involved in 3 episodes in battle, one where she mopped up the competition in a single hit after taking none, one where she was testing Ash and he managed to get to her level in an incomplete battle and one where she was one of the only two trainers fending off the Megalith to not be stopped by it, the other being Steven. All of this paints a picture that Diantha is just as much Champion-caliber as Steven. It's not her fault she wasn't thrown into the Hoenn crisis. For the record, all of that is something I can infer from what's shown without a single line of dialogue, making it showing, not telling. If anything, the only telling aspect helps explain why Greninja manages to get a hit on Gardevoir, i.e. he's the more aggressive of the two.

And 2) Braixen was never shown as comparable to Pikachu. She struggled to land a single hit and when she did, Pikachu no-selled it...against her strongest move. I'm pretty sure the forum has already discussed this to death.

 

[Blastmaster]

Except, 1) None of this is telling. We only have Diantha involved in 3 episodes in battle, one where she mopped up the competition in a single hit after taking none, one where she was testing Ash and he managed to get to her level in an incomplete battle and one where she was one of the only two trainers fending off the Megalith to not be stopped by it, the other being Steven. All of this paints a picture that Diantha is just as much Champion-caliber as Steven. It's not her fault she wasn't thrown into the Hoenn crisis. For the record, all of that is something I can infer from what's shown without a single line of dialogue, making it showing, not telling. If anything, the only telling aspect helps explain why Greninja manages to get a hit on Gardevoir, i.e. he's the more aggressive of the two.

And 2) Braixen was never shown as comparable to Pikachu. She struggled to land a single hit and when she did, Pikachu no-selled it...against her strongest move. I'm pretty sure the forum has already discussed this to death.

That's still mostly telling me that Diantha's only good when she's completely in her comfort zone. Her first appearance was incredibly early in the series where Ash obviously didn't stand a chance, and the moment he does she becomes a pushover, against a Dark-type no less. Steven did have more appearances to prove himself, that's true, but that doesn't change the fact that only one of them really proved himself. If Diantha wasn't going to appear much then they needed to do the most with what screentime she had, but her only major appearances before Flare are to establish her and then subject her to the Worf Effect.

 

[Sham]

I’m so confused by this thread. Y’all went from arguing about if Ash should of won to how strong Alain is to Grenonja’s strength level and now was Diantha nerfed or not.

 

[Shadao]

Perhaps we should bring it back to the main question, shall we?

It was weird. Since the end of BW, they have acted as if the Kalos League would finally be Ash's great victory. But we know what happened.

BW142: My dream, Pokémon Master!

- Ash reflects on his dream, remembers his friends and how they are working hard to reach theirs, and reaffirms that he will be a Pokemon Master.

- His mother shows visible sadness when he says he is going to travel again.

- Ash promises his mother that he will win the league this time.

- Ash says that he needs to get stronger.

Road to Kalos - a special about Ash's previous travels. I'm not sure, but I think they never did that at the beginning of a saga before.

XY001:We've Arrived in the Kalos Region! The Beginning of Dreams and Adventures!!

- Ash tells Viola that he wants to win a league this time.

XY040: Ash talks with Serena about his dream, saying that he is still a long way from achieving with the effort he is making, and that he needs to get stronger.

XY118: Satoshi VS Champion Carnet! VS Mega Sirnight!!

- Ash nearly defeats Diantha.

XY125: The Kalos League Begins! The Mega Lizardon Showdown: X VS Y!!

Ash faces a trainer who couldn't collect all the badges and promises to win the league.

The orange shuriken.

So, what do you think? Did they change their mind?

No one can be certain what the anime producers were thinking in develop but there are factors in play long before the League was even conceived. Namely, Alain was meant to be a major part of the XY series from the very beginning. It's just that his story doesn't coincide with Ash's journey until much, much later. And his stoic, very serious persona makes him a unique foil for Ash even when the two haven't met. Then consider how Ash was depicted in the series premiere of XY. It was clearly tailor-designed in response in BW's rather negative reception regarding Ash's portrayal in that show. Gone is the inexperienced kid and reset Pikachu. From XY and onwards, Ash and Pikachu would be portrayed as a powerful duo who could only be defeated by more powerful trainers. But he's still a klutz, prone to being childish and oblivious to things outside of Pokémon Battles.

So what does that make the XY series about? I say it's a reexamination of who Ash is and why he is the main protagonist of the series. During BW (I believe around the B2W2 animated trailer), people had been clamoring for a new protagonist for Pokémon, often some darker and edgier trainer who seems to be taking cues of Red from the Pokémon games (or rather, more specifically, Red as the fandom envisioned). They think that a kid like Ash is simply too goofy/stupid to be the protagonist of the series they wanted, especially since he still hadn't won a League yet. XY's primary goal was not have Ash win the League (since what good is a League Victory if it's not earned?) but rather to rebuild Ash's reputation as a formidable trainer that can make you believe he could win. Really, I doubts anyone here actually thought Ash could win in the Unova League after his less-than-stellar start.

That's only half of the story. The other half is his final opponent for the League, Alain. I have little doubt that Alain was designed to be Ash's Ultimate League Rival but not in a traditional sense. He serves as the fandom's wish fulfillment of an older, more badass trainer with a serious demeanor (armed with a Mega Charizard X to boot). And to ensure that Alain would be the toughest opponent that Ash would face, he's shown fightning Elite Four Pokémon (eventually beating one under Lysandre's watch). Of course, to make Ash's chances of beating Alain seem believable, Ash would have to be able to push one of the Elite Four to the brink. In this case, it was the Champion Diantha herself. That's why Gardevoir was nearly beaten by Ash-Greninja. Storywise, it stands to reason that both Ash and Alain are the strongest of the lot and both side could legitimately win...

Then was only one aspect that really decided the outcome: How does one handle victory or defeat?

The thing with Alain is that he is always focused on the destination but not the journey. Why else would he not actually be there for Mairin when she needs him the most (and instead goes on for this silly journey of winning the League to make her smile again). Whereas Ash always enjoys the journey along with the destination. He lives for the journey, the friends he's made and the battles, so much that it would be against his character to not recommend a strong trainer to partake in the League if only for the chance of facing them in battle even if it means losing the championship. In fact, I would say that he learns a lot more about himself in the Winding Woods than just remembering his childhood days. He learns why being a Pokémon trainer is so much fun for him and that it's not about winning Leagues, though that is a bonus. It's why I always mark that episode to be pinnacle of Ash's character development and why he's already the champion even before the official champion could be decided.

But for Alain, he didn't learn that lesson thanks to his long streak of wins and now that I think about it, even losing a battle wouldn't break through that thick skull of his. That's how detached he is from everyone. Defeat is just an inconvenience and all it'll really do is just him work harder and be more isolated till he gets to his goal no matter what. To really lose, he has to be on the top so he can lose everything in one fell swoop. Pride before the fall. That's why it makes sense story-wise for the way that things turn out. The only thing missing is for the trophy to be smashed into pieces when Team Flare attacked.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Alain's a mess of a character trying to be an Anakin Skywalker archetype, except he isn't. He's got some strange issues that make no sense in the long run.

 

[RafaSceptile]

The main problem with Alain as a character is how he was so different in Mega Evolution Specials and XY&Z. I don't think that Alain from MES was "falling in love" (not literally) with Ash and his Greninja, especially if he fighted against trainers such as Steven's Mega-Metagross and even Legendary Pokémon (including 50% Zygarde during XY&Z)

 

[Sham]

Can we all stop dying on the hill that Alain’a very late arrival into the anime was planned and that the specials where the writers “clever” way of writing him in? It was mess. Why not just introduce him around the same time as Sawyer and include the specials in the canon as regular episodes after his introduction? Giving a character three specials and then randomly forcing him in at the last moment isn’t great writing.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Can we all stop dying on the hill that Alain’a very late arrival into the anime was planned and that the specials where the writers “clever” way of writing him in? It was mess. Why not just introduce him around the same time as Sawyer and include the specials in the canon as regular episodes after his introduction? Giving a character three specials and then randomly forcing him in at the last moment isn’t great writing.

According to TV-Tokyo, Mega Evolutions Specials are part of the episodes in the anime, that's why SM049 was the Episode 1000.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Alain should have been an evil Team Flare enforcer misguided into thinking he was doing good, but of course the writers weren't about to make a Charizard a villain, so he was awkwardly put into the main story where suddenly he loved fighting this Mega-less kid who purged what little questionable acts he had, which were then all easily brushed aside when his alliance was revealed. (Similarly, I found it stupid Ash and Burnet brushed aside the fact Kukui hid his masked guy persona from them. They were just excited he was the famous celebrity. Like, the guy lied to them. So if he wasn't a celebrity, they would have been pissed? What are these values?)

Aaanyways, Ash should have won against someone as weird as Alain, but alas.

 

[Shadao]

Can we all stop dying on the hill that Alain’a very late arrival into the anime was planned and that the specials where the writers “clever” way of writing him in? It was mess. Why not just introduce him around the same time as Sawyer and include the specials in the canon as regular episodes after his introduction? Giving a character three specials and then randomly forcing him in at the last moment isn’t great writing.

Oh no, it was planned the moment that Mairin mentioned Ash to Alain. Their paths were always going to intertwine at some point with Team Flare being the linchpin of it all.

And it seems that there's hesitation to feature a main series episode without Ash Ketchum in some capacity, which is why episodes that don't feature Ash are treated as special episodes even though they somewhat advance the plot of the series. Only recently have they've been pushing the limits with a Team Rocket episode that barely has Ash in it in SM.

 

[Dragalge]

Alain's a mess of a character trying to be an Anakin Skywalker archetype, except he isn't. He's got some strange issues that make no sense in the long run.

Quite so. He’s an Anakan’t.

I just really wanted to make that pun but it’s true!

 

[Shadao]

Understandable but the series would go on later to experiment with putting Ash on the back burner anyway so why not attempt it when it made sense? Instead of giving us bad fillers they could of implemented those episodes (and occasionally show Ash if it’s that important to include him). In my opinion there was very little allusion that the specials and the current series would collide prior to XYZ starting which was basically the last hour to do so.

Actually their collusion course was determined long before XY&Z was even announced.

These images were from Mad-Paced Getter OP of the XY series (not XY&Z). It's the third variation after Satoshi defeated Citron, specifically debuting in
XY071 on May 7, 2015. The announcement of XY&Z won't be until September 15, 2015.

 

[Sham]

Actually their collusion course was determined long before XY&Z was even announced.

These images were from Mad-Paced Getter OP of the XY series (not XY&Z). It's the third variation after Satoshi defeated Citron, specifically debuting in
XY071.

There also was an opening that included Charizard fighting Reshiram. They aren’t exactly the best concluders for future events in the anime. I’m not saying the writers didn’t have in mind them meeting at some point during the story board (I’m sure we all know that) I’m saying that timing was messy.

 

[Epicocity]

There also was an opening that included Charizard fighting Reshiram. They aren’t exactly the best concluders for future events in the anime. I’m not saying the writers didn’t have in mind them meeting at some point during the story board (I’m sure we all know that) I’m saying that timing was messy.

1) Yajima outright said in an interview that it was always the intention that Ash and Alain would meet.

2) Mairin mentions in the very first Mega special (around XY 21) that Ash saved Garchomp on Prism Tower, telling this directly to Alain.

3) Sycamore outright remembers and thinks about Alain in XY 68 in a flashback where he actually shows up.

4) Shadao's proof of Alain appearing in an OP roughly 30 episodes before. And given that literally everything else in that OP actually happened (the Gym Leader's aces, Eevee, Noibat, Sawyer), it'd be stupid to deny it.

So yeah, Alain was definitely planned from the beginning both to be introduced and as a foil of Ash. To believe otherwise is to deny the obvious.

 

[Shadao]

There also was an opening that included Charizard fighting Reshiram. They aren’t exactly the best concluders for future events in the anime. I’m not saying the writers didn’t have in mind them meeting at some point during the story board (I’m sure we all know that) I’m saying that timing was messy.

Except that opening told us that Ash's Charizard would return, which it did deliver on that promise. Focusing on the trees misses the forest entirely.

Ash and Alain were going to meet at some point in the story according the OP. Ash was mentioned to Alain in the very first Mega Evolution Special. Sycamore's flashback showcased a younger Alain. Three instances (plus word from the director himself) cannot be a coincidence or a last minute decision. They were all consistent with the main narrative that Alain was always meant to cross path with Ash at some point in the series.

1) Yajima outright said in an interview that it was always the intention that Ash and Alain would meet.

2) Mairin mentions in the very first Mega special (around XY 21) that Ash saved Garchomp on Prism Tower, telling this directly to Alain.

3) Sycamore outright remembers and thinks about Alain in XY 68 in a flashback where he actually shows up.

4) Shadao's proof of Alain appearing in an OP roughly 30 episodes before. And given that literally everything else in that OP actually happened (the Gym Leader's aces, Eevee, Noibat, Sawyer), it'd be stupid to deny it.

So yeah, Alain was definitely planned from the beginning both to be introduced and as a foil of Ash. To believe otherwise is to deny the obvious.

Speak of the Giratina... I got Greninja'd.