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Would Gen 8 and Future Generations be better off as Open World?

Discussion in 'General Pokémon Discussion' started by Marbi Z, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. Marbi Z

    Marbi Z Lop-And-Bunny!!!

    We have all seen the rise of the Open World Genre over the years where you can play at your own pace and do whatever you want. Notable Examples include The Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim and The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. Wouldn't it be neat to see the next Generation of Pokémon to embrace this with there next Main Game? Imagine being able go right to the Pokémon League after you got your Starter Poke or being able to join various factions and groups (even the evil ones) maybe even take a page out of Skyrim and have the other trainers level with you? The possibilities are endless. What do you think?
     
  2. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    In my strong opinion, no. Open world games are an interesting concept, but, by their very nature, they allow little to no room for story. To put things simply, Pokémon should be stepping up it's story-telling, not making it even worse.

    And really, I can't fathom why going straight to the Pokémon League after getting your starter is desirable. It ruins all sense of progression.

    What I would want is an "open-ish" world game. A game with large open areas that you can explore freely, but in a sequenced order. Basically, think of each route or cave as its own "mini open world." This way story and progression can still be maintained, while still having the vastness and exploration of an open-world game.
     
  3. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    It can work. In fact an open world Pokemon game would be a fun new way to tell how much a player has progressed and how much experience he gained through the end result.

    Having the choice between battling 8 maybe 12 Gym leaders in any order to none or going straight to the Pokemon League after getting your starter would be a pretty fun idea. Your choices would actually matter in how challenging the end result would become, symbolizing how far your progression is. If you go straight to the Pokemon League, it's possible to win but it would be far far more harder and intense similar to how Link can travel to Hyrule Castle in Breath of the Wild right from the start. Alternatively you could battle 8 or more Gym Leaders to gain enough experience and make far more impactful decisions in the Pokemon League symbolizing how far you've come. However in this open-world adventure there has to be a deadline that you have to get to the Pokemon League. Now just because the deadline is over doesn't mean you can't get into the Pokemon League. You can time-skip an year or months, whatever the time limit is, and get into the next Pokemon League. This is how a person can get to the Pokemon League right from the start if they wanted to. However let's say the deadline is near and fail to get eight badges in time. It's alright, you can get into the Pokemon League the same way a person goes straight to the Pokemon League after getting their starter Pokemon, through a series of preliminary rounds against tons of other trainers who also failed to get eight badges too.

    So yeah. An open world Pokemon game can undoubtedly work and the level issue wouldn't be too hard to get around if you use Pokemon Stadium's style of level-scaling.
     
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  4. keithpetrosky

    keithpetrosky Well-Known Member

    I hope every region is in one game and this new game is based in outer space to discover new worlds and ultra beasts
     
    anjunajake likes this.
  5. KyogreThunder

    KyogreThunder Call of Fate

    Not really, but I'd definitely love them to have the same balance of storyline and exploration as Hoenn and Sinnoh games, with multiple branching paths and lots of backtracking, and the option to challenge some Gyms out of order.
     
  6. Ignition

    Ignition Chad of Gen 7

    No they wouldn’t
     
  7. agent9149

    agent9149 Active Member

    I would like to see an open world game for pokemon. I think it would work amazing.

    Here's what I would envision an open world to look like for pokemon:

    A big open-air map. With all the exploration features of BOTW: climbing, swimming, and gliding. But since this is pokemon, let's add some more elements: Diving, Flying, and Digging, Surfing. (For the digging, it would be cool if certain places had underground caverns. Filled with bio luminescent fungi and crystals). Dynamic weather that effects the gameplay. Have cooking! You find ingredients and you make your pokemon meals. It can be for bonding and also in battle.

    Instead of Routes you have zones. Each zone will have a certain level of pokemon. Let's say zone 1 has pokemon from level 1-10. Zone 2 has 5-15. Zone 3 has 10-20. And so on. So on.
    There are three types of pokemon:
    1. Pokemon that run away from you
    2. Pokemon that chase after you
    3. Pokemon that stand their ground

    We can also introduce something called auras: Some pokemon have green auras. Some Pokemon have red auras. If you engage in a battle with a pokemon with green auras, it instantly goes into capture mode like LGPE. If you engage in a battle with a pokemon that has red auras, a battle starts and the pokemon scales to your average party level.

    Some pokemon only come out during the morning, day, evening, night. Some pokemon only come out when its' raining, during a sandstorm, snowing. Imagine if you can only catch a surskit during the morning when it's raining. You can also have seasons, and have pokemon migrate. During the winter Ursarings are found in the caves in Zone 13, but during the summer you can find them in the forest in zone 16.

    Each zone has their own set of Trainers. But these trainers are moving throughout the zone. The trainers in the zone are all at set level. However, as you beat them you can go back and rebattle them at a stronger level. Trainers can spot you up on a hill or up in a tree or climbing a cliff and challenge you in a battle. You can even add a mechanic where you can hide and sneak past trainers if you don't wanna battle them. There's also Roaming Trainers. Let's say you battle Mountain Climber Eddie in zone 8. You can then rebattle him in Zone 13. They move to different zones. There are trainers who randomly show up to you, (like the ninjas in BOTW) and they battle you. These trainers scale to your team or even the amount of badges you.

    Of course we have gym leaders. In fact, we might go even a step further, and gyms aren't in cities or town anymore. They're somewhere in the middle of nature and you have to go find them.

    As for shrines in BOTW, they could be trails, where you battle Totem pokemon. Imagine finding hidden coves, groves, tunnels and there are Totem pokemon in them. There are 100 totem pokemons. Finding z-crystals. Finding tms. Finding zygarde cells. Finding mega stones. It will be so much more.

    ------------------------------

    In terms of linearity here are some options for a linear pokemon game:

    To keep trainers from catching high level pokemon early in the game, the trainer needs badges for them to listen to them. IF you catch a level 70 it might not listen to you if you got 3 badges.
    Some areas might need certain items to get to them. Like a desert needs goggles. You need winter clothes to go up a mountain. Some islands or even section of the region can't be swam too and you need surf, or a sail. You unlock those by completing story beats and fighting gyms.

    In terms of non-linear:

    You can go anywhere as long as you're tough enough. Gyms scale to your party and number of badges you have. So if you have 5 badges and you're level 50, you can't switch your party to level 10s and the fight the 6th gym leader, no. They're gonna be level 50+. Each gym unlocks a story element but they're all can be rearranged. You don't need a specific order. Or the main story thread is an opt in kind of thing like Fallout 4.
     
  8. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    Forget an open-world Pokemon RPG. I want a open-world Pokemon Snap game.
     
  9. Bolt the Cat

    Bolt the Cat Bringing the Thunder

    Absolutely. The gameplay feels lacking and outdated by being so restrictive and linear. As for how I'd do it, it'd work as follows:

    The map would be a seamless overworld with an open environment. There are no more routes, instead the region is divided into sectors with multiple cities and other points of interest within those sectors You can go anywhere on the map you want, to any town, and take on any gym. The game would have a level scaling system based on how many gym badge you have and your active party. For important battles such as gyms, rival battles, and evil team battles, the levels would be set based on how many badges you have. However, for wild Pokemon and random trainer battles, there would be a temporary scaling system based on the level of your current team. Wild Pokemon would be encountered in the overworld, roaming randomly throughout the sector with some species being exclusive to certain points of interest and rarer species exclusive to specific spots on the map. There would also be tons of sidequests, with much bigger rewards than the ones in USUM. Some would reward you with various items, Mega Stones, Z-Crystals, and things like that. Otherwise would reward you with Pokemon, would have you find and battle a certain Pokemon that you couldn't find otherwise, and some would cause new species of Pokemon to appear in the overworld.
     
    agent9149 likes this.
  10. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    Sounds kind of like some of my ideas, legendary Pokemon quests being similar to Daedric Quests from Elder Scrolls. One interesting aspect I thought about if Pokemon had it's own "Hyrule", it's own "final bosses" that you could battle at any time you want, from the beginning or until you get more experienced and that is none other than the Pokemon League. For me personally, I would handle the Pokemon League much like how Pokemon Adventures did so in that you can enter the Pokemon League without badges but this is the much more harder way where you battle an onslaught of opponents who failed to get eight badges in time. This is also a great way to get around a deadline you perhaps are about to miss. The biggest issue with this of course would be the leveling up issue. A lv. 5 starter isn't going to do well against Lv. 60 Elite Four Pokemon so what you do is that since you got to the testings so early in the Pokemon League, it speeds up the Pokemon game for you and your Pokemon are now automatically Lv. 50 or Lv. 60 BUT there's a catch. Your Pokemon doesn't evolve instantly and you get no EV gains nor do you have enough time to get EVs in-between the Pokemon League tourney. There's also another catch, the Elite Four Pokemon is three to five levels higher than your automatically leveled-up Pokemon. The thing is, this is not new because Pokemon has done this feature before in the form of Rental Lv. 50 Pokemon vs. opponents who have Lv 52-55 Pokemon. If you get eight badges however, you don't have to take the tourney full of trainers who failed to get eight badges, you don't have to wait, and the Elite Four's Pokemon are at the same base levels.
     
  11. Bolt the Cat

    Bolt the Cat Bringing the Thunder

    This seems a bit convoluted. So you can't evolve it and you can't get EVs? That's how Pokemon would get strong enough to take them on.

    I think it's fine to just restrict you from challenging the Elite 4 until you get 8 badges. The Pokemon League doesn't exactly have much to explore, so there's no major loss in restricting that.
     
  12. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Scaling based on your active party is horrible and broken. Don't ever do that. It just ruins any kind of progression training your pokémon gives you and rewards bringing a bunch of useless level 1 pokémon with you to force the enemy levels way down. It also ruins any remote sense of challenge you can give yourself now by fighting underleveled. The games are already easy enough.
     
    RileyXY1 likes this.
  13. Bolt the Cat

    Bolt the Cat Bringing the Thunder

    That's why I said don't do it for important battles. But if you're just doing any old battle, you need a way to train up those Lv. 1 Pokemon to match your progress in the game. Otherwise, if you want to add a new Pokemon to your team or completely scrap your team and train new Pokemon, they'll get massacred.
     
  14. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Unless you're breeding, you're not really going to have level 1 Pokemon. The levels of Wild Pokemon are also subject to progression, although they intentionally keep them lower than trainer battles because otherwise, you could just go out and catch (insert whatever Pokemon counters the latest Gym) and then throw them in to massacre with no effort. If you want to breed a level 1 Pokemon, that's a completely optional choice on your part, but the gameplay doesn't need to be overhauled around an arbitrary choice to start from scratch in the middle of the game. If anything, the same thing could be accomplished by expanding upon what past versions have down in being able to re-battle trainers, or having high EXP yielding battles (Audino, Blisseys, etc.). Not to mention the post-Gen 6 EXP Share has made catching up new Pokemon you add to your party something of a non-factor.

    Level Scaling doesn't really work in RPGs. The closest thing you'll find is what Octopath Traveler did; enemies had set levels but it scaled based on how many party members you had, although Octopath had a VERY atypical structure in that it had 8 separate, unrelated stories rather than one over-arching one, so the scaling was to allow someone to focus on specific stories without feeling obligated to do all of them if they didn't want to.

    I'd also argue that a seamless world doesn't add anything to Pokemon unless the gameplay gets a major overhaul. They didn't just throw the Ocarina of Time formula into BotW when they gave it an open world; they had to complete reinvent the formula. What made the open world work so well for BotW is that you could interact with it so much. You could climb every surface. You could cut down every tree. You could set fire to the world, manipulate the physics engine, and so on. If you just stuck the Pokemon gameplay into an open world, the game does not inherently become better because of it. Maybe if they expanded the role of Ride Pokemon or something, but if you can't jump, climb, etc. to be able to get into every nook and cranny and see everything the world has to offer, then it's not actually adding anything to the gameplay itself.
     
  15. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    The level scaling function more along the lines of the Battle Frontier where you save before you enter and can't really save in-between rounds. Also not only is the level scaling similar to Pokemon Stadium's but it's supposed to mirror Hyrule Castle's endgame difficulty. The people who worked on Breath of the Wild said they wanted Hyrule Castle to be the place where you can travel there right from the start. There's a catch that it will be incredibly difficult but not impossible. The Hyrule Castle endgame is supposed to symbolize your progression of a character, and the more experienced a player is, the more easier that endgame becomes and I've always wanted to see something similar in Pokemon but through the Pokemon League where a veteran player who put the time and effort would have an easier time than say a newbie who naively goes to the Pokemon League right from the start.
     
  16. Bolt the Cat

    Bolt the Cat Bringing the Thunder

    Problem is that if you're breeding those Lv. 1 Pokemon, you'll need a way to train them up and explore with them without getting massacred by Lv. 50some Pokemon. If the levels stay permanently high after beating the game, it'll force you to carry around a high level Pokemon and could hamper things like EV training. The methods they've already used wouldn't really help unless they're also subjected to the same kind of temp scaling or unless you have a high level Pokemon on your team to do the dirty work.

    So why exactly doesn't it work?

    You can explore every nook and cranny without being able to jump and climb around, they just need good map design to hide things well. Although that level of interaction would definitely improve the experience a lot, it isn't really necessary.

    They really wouldn't be able to pull off what they did with Hyrule Castle that well for Pokemon. Everything's too tied to levels to the point where just scaling your Pokemon up probably still wouldn't be enough to even the odds.
     
  17. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    The game isn't designed around perfectly EV training a Pokemon in the main playthrough due to mandatory battles. That expectation is unrealistic. Once you've cleared the game, it's really a non-factor to EV train and level up Pokemon in a hurry. Not to mention breeding is strictly optional, so they're not going to overhaul the entire engine around it.

    Eliminates the challenge factor. Creates arbitrary extra levels of development time. Doesn't affect all Pokemon in the same way. Level scaling seems like a huge overkill way of saying "I want to be able to bring a level 1 Pokemon in at the 6th gym without having to slow my progress", which, quite frankly, is a ridiculous expectation. It's not wrong to want more effective ways to level up Pokemon, but making an entire game scale is just a waste of resources that destroys the idea of progression.

    You could just as easily stay in one area without any incentive to move on because if everything scales, then there's no incentive to progress.

    Disagree. The extent to which you can move around and interact in the world defines how effective an open world is. The idea that any game is automatically made better by open world is quite frankly lazy thinking, not to mention you run into increased struggles with frame rates with an open world as well. The main appeal of seamless worlds is no long load times, but Pokemon has never really had the issue of long load times so this is largely a non-factor. You can have a vast, expansive world without it being seamless. A great example of this would be the original Xenoblade Chronicles; it had massive environments but still had had divides between areas.

    I mean heck, if we get right down to it, many Pokemon games already had largely seamless portions! So many towns/routes don't have a seam, you walk right from one route to the next without interruption. It's mainly caves/forests/etc which function as dungeons of sorts that tend to act as the seams, with the occasional gate as well.

    Slapping an "open world" onto a game does not automatically make it better unless the gameplay engine adjusts to work with said world. As it stands now, the current Pokemon engine would not largely benefit from an open world as much as some might hype it up. What it would need is an overhaul, to radically break from the formula and try something altogether new. From what we've seen in Sword and Shield (i.e., very little), it seems like that's not the case here, so for the time being, it'll be little more than a dream. But if they do an open world Pokemon game, I'd rather see them take the time to adjust the game engine, or heck, even make a spin-off around it (I would literally kill for Pokemon Snap to have something like that as someone mentioned earlier), but even then, it's gotta make sure the gameplay matches the setting.
     
  18. Bolt the Cat

    Bolt the Cat Bringing the Thunder

    Again, the temp scaling don't affect the mandatory battles, just the random wild Pokemon and trainer battles. So if you want to stay back and EV train, but otherwise you can just move on.

    This would work especially well if paired with the difficulty modes everyone is clamoring for. If you're playing on Easy mode, you don't really need to stay back and train, but in a Challenge mode you might appreciate the game accommodating for that.

    I think you've got the wrong idea. It's not about making the later gyms easier. It's about letting you choose the order you complete the game. If you want to bring a Lv. 1 Pokemon to the 6th gym, that's fine, but the consequence of that is that the other gyms will have higher level Pokemon.

    Long load times isn't the main reason people want a seamless overworld, the main reason is so that they can walk around wherever they want without being railroaded in a certain direction. And this has been a complaint about Pokemon for a few years now.

    The only thing that really needs changing is the leveling system, which is what I was addressing, and the map design, which is the main thing that everyone in the open world camp is clamoring for them to improve. Everything else from the existing formula works fine, the progression is primarily determined by gyms, which they can change around to let you complete in any order, and catching Pokemon and finding items and trainers incentivizes the high degree of exploration needed to make open world worthwhile.
     
  19. Marbi Z

    Marbi Z Lop-And-Bunny!!!

    Actually I'd be all for that as well. Though I still think an Open World Main series game could still work. I'd love to make a character that helps the villains for a change.
     
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  20. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    I think an open world Pokemon Snap game would not only justify a 60 dollar Pokemon Snap game but a 60 dollar photography game in general. One the gameplay mechancis I've always imagined is the use of vehicles, camping and the "patience of the shot" where you wait for Pokemon to act in a certain way to get a perfect shot, maybe like two Rhyhorns cuddling their two horns at each other like Rhino's in love. One of the photography aspects I've always wanted in my dream Pokemon Snap game is through the use of an underwater vehicle and scuba equipment in order to an explore a sort of "underwater continent", the ocean itself including the more darker deeper areas where Pokemon like Chinchou and Relicanth would reside. The thing is I think water gameplay would work better for a photography game than just any action game for the simple fact that Pokemon Snap is aimed to be a casual relaxing experience unlike say Zelda where you have to attack enemies and explore tight corridors underwater.
     
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.

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