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Would you believe it if Ash Ketchum Won the Sinnoh league or maybe like Kalos League?

I'd hate to be that guy but what's point of letting Ash win the alola league anyway? was it special and News articles seem to call him a Pokémon master? but I'm like "Well yes but actually no" to those news articles. Winning a League does not make him a Pokémon master. if anything, He could have became a Sinnoh League Champion but that don't mean he's a Pokémon Master after all.
 

Antiyonder

Overlord
1. ^^^Still in favor of how the Alola League played out, but yeah I am curious as to what prompted them to go through with it when yeah other seasons would have worked with a win.

2. I mean if Ash was to win a League much sooner, yeah it would have worked more if he had been a better trainer during the Kanto years or even Johto where he actually did win badges like other trainers did.

So I wasn't surprised that he lost in Sinton, but a factor I think is worth questioning is why that was the portion of the anime which decided to actually give us a look at the region Elite Four.

Johto obviously had a Kanto member and Gym Leader, plus the anime having the floating timeliness. So you'd have to just establish them as moonlighting for John group or make two new trainers for that role.

In all frankness, the lack of them beforehand not even something I consider to be a make or break. Just that it does beg the question why Kanto's E4 was stretched out over 3/4 sagas and only one of Hoenn's appeared, with Sinnoh deciding to break the trend.

Heck had Ash's journey concluded with the show ending or changing leads, would we have seen the entirety of the Kanto group before the end?
 

Ryker101

Well-Known Member
He should’ve won both tbh, it makes more sense narratively

If I had to pick, I’d rather he won Kalos. With sinnoh he at least had a satisfying conclusion with Paul but here they kept hyping him up to win but didn’t deliver. It retroactively makes some of XYZ harder to watch imo, cause that storyline gets butchered. You could say he got payoff by saving kalos but we already knew that would happen.

Besides him winning also flows with Alola, since he’d be more carefree after achieving a big milestone
 
Ash should have won Kalos. Worst decision Pokemon ever made. /Thread
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Johto, Sinnoh and Kalos would all feel believable
Not sure about Kanto, Hoenn or Unova though
I feel him losing in Kanto worked against all the dumb luck wins he got in that era (even if they kinda failed to make his loss feel connected to that rather than just being unfairly screwed by a series of events of everyone being apathetic about it).

Kalos truthfully had Ash at his most linear one track focus on his league goal. I'm not sure if him LOSING really fixed that element about him, but I'm not sure if I would have appreciated him WINNING fully in that era either, especially since they were going for the whole 'moral victor' premise with the Flare arc.

Hoenn.....I'm not really sure about Hoenn really. Besides Ash being more mature in that series, there's not a lot of connecting rival or character development dots, besides I suppose the irony of him being eliminated by a Meowth defeating Pikachu (I suppose there could have been potential in Team Rocket's comforting his supposed superior losing and having its pride wounded in the end, but that's not really Ash related).
 
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Bortgreen

Captain Pikachu is EPIC
I feel him losing in Kanto worked against all the dumb luck wins he got in that era (even if they kinda failed to make his loss feel connected to that rather than just being unfairly screwed by a series of events of everyone being apathetic about it).

Kalos truthfully had Ash at his most linear one track focus on his league goal. I'm not sure if him LOSING really fixed that element about him, but I'm not sure if I would have appreciated him WINNING fully in that era either, especially since they were going for the whole 'moral victor' premise with the Flare arc.

Hoenn.....I'm not really sure about Hoenn really. Besides Ash being more mature in that series, there's not a lot of connecting rival or character development dots, besides I suppose the irony of him being eliminated by a Meowth defeating Pikachu (I suppose there could have been potential in Team Rocket's comforting his supposed superior losing and having its pride wounded in the end, but that's not really Ash related).
Honestly Meowth in boots was pretty cool, it just didn't deserve to be introduced only to defeat Ash
It could easily be a good rival for Ash during the series
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Honestly Meowth in boots was pretty cool, it just didn't deserve to be introduced only to defeat Ash
It could easily be a good rival for Ash during the series
Really I feel like the wasted potential with it was around Team Rocket's Meowth (I've already discussed how most of his rivalries end up one sided and undercooked besides Pikachu in my analysis thread).

The writers seemed to acknowledge too late that most of their 'dream smashers' were too undeveloped and existed too blatantly as a roadblock for Ash's goal. They only made attempts to fix it in the last series before Ash finally won, and even that didn't really work out.
 

pardusco

"The oppression of Poké Balls."
Should have just let him win in Sinnoh and move on with another protagonist instead of dragging this out for 10 more years. I could not find the Alola League win satisfying at all considering that there were zero prerequisites to enter.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Okay, would it been better off if Ash Ketchum won the Sinnoh League or maybe like Kalos league?

would it been changed for better or nothing. If Ash Ketchum wins Sinnoh League, I think he could be replaced with a new protagonist for Unova Region. but as for Kalos league, I think He should just simply adventure in Alola Region.

Would you believe it?
Considering how popular his character still was during DP, I don't see why him winning the Shinou League would've been the right time for him to be replaced. That said, him winning the Shinou League would've only been realistic to me if Takuto hadn't competed.
 
Considering how popular his character still was during DP, I don't see why him winning the Shinou League would've been the right time for him to be replaced. That said, him winning the Shinou League would've only been realistic to me if Takuto hadn't competed.
I Guess you're right. Tobias only serves his purpose as a Roadblock to Ash's Final goal which makes me annoyed to this no extent by having no time for him to explain his backstory, Does he have a backstory if he's a roadblock?
 

XY Rules

Pokemon Master
Considering how popular his character still was during DP, I don't see why him winning the Shinou League would've been the right time for him to be replaced. That said, him winning the Shinou League would've only been realistic to me if Takuto hadn't competed.
It’s not about popularity. It’s about his character arc and the narrative coming to a close. As others have mentioned, Sinnoh very much felt like the culmination of Ash’s journey up until that point. He had a smaller arc within each saga too.

Kanto: Self-discovery.
Orange Islands and Johto: Skill improvement.
Hoenn: Learning to be humble.
Sinnoh: Learning to accept differing ideologies while reaffirming his own.

All of these build off of each other into the next one and Sinnoh tested him on all of them. Hence why it feels like a culmination of his character development over the years. Also the fact that he uses reserves and we got several cameos from each previous series.

Kanto he wasn’t even ready for the league to begin with.

Johto he deserved to compete, but Harrison was just honestly a better trainer.

Hoenn he could’ve won, but his cockiness held him back. AG Ash was always underestimating his opponents until near the end, thanks to Brandon.

Sinnoh, the only thing stopping him was Tobias (who came out of nowhere). He had everything he needed to win that.

All of this is why it is believable for Ash to have won the Sinnoh League. Popularity is not a factor. And even if it was, plenty of people were still clammering for Ash to be replaced back then anyway...
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Popularity is not a factor.
It was clearly a factor to some extent, otherwise they could've simply replaced him back then, especially since they would've also had the perfect excuse of Black/White being the first post-Kanto games that were purposely designed to be a "fresh start", ergo the greatest opportunity to change the status quo in the anime aswell.

The fact that they didn't despite his story-arc already feeling complete [and the new start factor I previously mentioned] highly suggests that his popularity is what kept him in the series post-DP, at least by process of elimination since his character had already peaked and there wasn't really anything else hindering him from leaving the series.
 

Applecorp

Well-Known Member
I would've believed if he won either league because the writers can do whatever they want but just because they could've made him win the Kalos league for example doesn't mean it would've been a good decision. What would be the point of him winning that league and then him going off to Alola and having to attend a freaking school and having lame adventures? Talk about a waste of a league win which is also how I feel about him winning Alola's league.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
I would've believed if he won either league because the writers can do whatever they want but just because they could've made him win the Kalos league for example doesn't mean it would've been a good decision. What would be the point of him winning that league and then him going off to Alola and having to attend a freaking school and having lame adventures? Talk about a waste of a league win which is also how I feel about him winning Alola's league.
Alola only feels like “a waste” because it’s not the same as your typical league or regional tournament when it’s NEW.

While it was predictable that Ash would win it simply due to Alola and Kantos connections (That and Alolas first ever champion being someone from Kanto, which literally screams Ash), I prefer his win to be from Alola from a character standpoint given Ash basically made history in-universe as not only a regional champion, but a regions FIRST ever champion, the league was made by best-father figure he could get, and he gets the first major stepping stone towards being a Pokémon Master.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Alola only feels like “a waste” because it’s not the same as your typical league or regional tournament when it’s NEW.

While it was predictable that Ash would win it simply due to Alola and Kantos connections (That and Alolas first ever champion being someone from Kanto, which literally screams Ash), I prefer his win to be from Alola from a character standpoint given Ash basically made history in-universe as not only a regional champion, but a regions FIRST ever champion, the league was made by best-father figure he could get, and he gets the first major stepping stone towards being a Pokémon Master.
I also feel like Alola kinda works as a character realization for Ash, where he has fully wound down from the egotistical character he started off as and has learned to appreciate the world around him and that the league is only one blip of the grand scheme of it all.

Unova is an odd anomoly in the progression, though Kalos, despite celebrating his competence and growth experience wise, still has him kind of in a very linear one track mindset, only subconciously cherishing the adventure rather than the dream, while the Alola league feels like a more self actualized take on Ash.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
I also feel like Alola kinda works as a character realization for Ash, where he has fully wound down from the egotistical character he started off as and has learned to appreciate the world around him and that the league is only one blip of the grand scheme of it all.
This too, and this point gets amplified even further by the fact that, IMO, the Alola gang is arguably Ash's closest companions. No hate to Brock, Misty, Dawn, May and the rest, but SM is the first series that actually feels like Ash has a very close relation and emotional tie with the setting he's adventuring through since he doesnt travel constantly in Alola like he did in Kanto - Kalos. He's not going to one place as fast as he quickly leaves another place like in the other regions

Instead, he has a home base to regularly stay at. He has great family figures in Kukui and Burnet (which Journeys amplified even more by making their child Ash's little brother), his classmates are with him on a daily basis just like all of Ash's companions, but they all do the same daily routine as him. Going to school, learning Pokemon, exploring the different parts of Alola, having the time of their lives all together. You can basically treat them in the same vein as you would college friends. People you see every single day, doing the same stuff together every single day.

Unlike the other regions, Alola's become the new Kanto for Ash. A second home.
Unova is an odd anomoly in the progression, though Kalos, despite celebrating his competence and growth experience wise, still has him kind of in a very linear one track mindset, only subconciously cherishing the adventure rather than the dream, while the Alola league feels like a more self actualized take on Ash.
Exactly. XY Ash may grow in the seriousness department where he's focused on getting stronger and winning the league title, but he suffers in the department of actually enjoying Kalos. Even in Hoenn and especially Sinnoh when Ash matured and was super focused on battles, he still took the time to enjoy the adventure through those regions and wasn't stuck thinking about one thing through and through.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Unlike the other regions, Alola's become the new Kanto for Ash. A second home.
I like how it works in the sense of being a total antithesis of what Kanto was (at least originally). The original series conveyed Kanto as horrifically serious business, leaving Ash a very insecure and frustrated character as a result of how harsh and judgemental peers were around him (which we know in Shudo's original plans was because the whole Pokemon trainer occupation was toxic and based around 'git gud or you're a loser', gym leaders got fired if they didn't demolish enough challengers, people waste their whole lives chasing a goal they can't master, etc). Ash's league loss was a farce based around the bad hubris the region had given him, and no one having any sympathy for him or his Pokemon not performing at their best capacity because of some 'excuses' like being kidnapped and exhausted by criminals.

By contrast Alola is an extremely laid back region with a friendly family like community, with humble but scrupulous industry and competitions (besides a few criminals like Viren and Skull). The officials and even the legendary deities of the place look out for the population. The league was based around anyone, not just 'winners' getting to take part and being praised just for trying their best and showing how well they work with their Pokemon over climbing the ladder.

Given his history, I could buy into the idea that Ash would fight at his fullest capacity in Alola the most, that he would be at his most wound down and at ease here.
 
This too, and this point gets amplified even further by the fact that, IMO, the Alola gang is arguably Ash's closest companions. No hate to Brock, Misty, Dawn, May and the rest, but SM is the first series that actually feels like Ash has a very close relation and emotional tie with the setting he's adventuring through since he doesnt travel constantly in Alola like he did in Kanto - Kalos. He's not going to one place as fast as he quickly leaves another place like in the other regions

Instead, he has a home base to regularly stay at. He has great family figures in Kukui and Burnet (which Journeys amplified even more by making their child Ash's little brother), his classmates are with him on a daily basis just like all of Ash's companions, but they all do the same daily routine as him. Going to school, learning Pokemon, exploring the different parts of Alola, having the time of their lives all together. You can basically treat them in the same vein as you would college friends. People you see every single day, doing the same stuff together every single day.

Unlike the other regions, Alola's become the new Kanto for Ash. A second home.

Exactly. XY Ash may grow in the seriousness department where he's focused on getting stronger and winning the league title, but he suffers in the department of actually enjoying Kalos. Even in Hoenn and especially Sinnoh when Ash matured and was super focused on battles, he still took the time to enjoy the adventure through those regions and wasn't stuck thinking about one thing through and through.
I think Ash enjoyed the Kalos region, especially who he was traveling with.
 
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