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XYZ effect on fans and writers. How do you feel?

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DarkusHeracross

Active Member
The ending of XY was dissapointing to most fans, and it caused a rift among fans, some even stopped watching outright, but if you talk about XYZ on any pokefourm it always boils down to these things; ash greninja, serenas kiss and the ending.

These three things not only caused a rift amoung fans but I belive that the some of the writers back then and even now didnt agree with what XY brought to the table, as we see how Serenas return was handled, ash greninja getting removed from a flashback which leads some to say that they have retconned it (they havent offically done that), how they treated the Alian and Diantha battles in the Masters 8 etc,

So I want to ask, for those who did not like the XYZ and for those who did, which one of the three things I mentioned was the deal breaker for you? This is coming from someone who was only extremely dissapointed with how it ended, not with ash greninja or serena.
 

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
These three things not only caused a rift amoung fans but I belive that the some of the writers back then and even now didnt agree with what XY brought to the table, as we see how Serenas return was handled, ash greninja getting removed from a flashback which leads some to say that they have retconned it (they havent offically done that), how they treated the Alian and Diantha battles in the Masters 8 etc,
I don’t think that things are so black and white. The Serena episode did justice to her character, not every appearance of her has to be shipping bait. Clemont/Bonnie had a very good return that is only topped by Paul’s in my opinion. And even the Masters Tournament battles, while obviously disappointing for a variety of reasons that have been brought up several times, aren’t created with the intention to mock XY or it’s fans. The same can be said for Greninja’s return, I don’t think that AG was retconned, because why should they even bother? The fact that they cared enough to have him return and to link Lucario’s powers to the AG phenomenon clearly show that exactly the opposite of a retcon happened.
 

BlobbiBoi

Well-Known Member
XYZ's animation was - and is - the best in the franchise. SM is a close second for me, and Journey's has moments that I can say bring me the same feeling but not quite the same.

XYZ's problem is that it hyped up a level of power that flatly didn't exist and I think some fans fell right into the trap of believing it because its their favorite series.

Alain was never shown to be able to tangle with Champion tier opponents; he fights Steven and gets his cheeks clapped - is it so surprising he fails against Leon, a guy who's held his position with Cynthia-tier effiency for a decade? If he was struggling with Steven, Leon was always going to make him a chewtoy. Likewise, Diantha is still a Champion (she wiped Lance handily) but just wasn't at Leon's level. She's primarily a preformer and that's her main passion; she says as much.

Nobody is "mocking" XY because their characters lost. Diantha lost to The Main Brick Wall himself, and she was the FIRST person to get a "what?!" out of him in 120+ episodes. She surprised him, he admits she made him sweat.
 

DayQuil95

Well-Known Member
Thing with XYZ is that they were seemingly going for a high-risk high-reward type of series:

They made Ash more mature.
They upped animation to 11.
Writing felt somewhat more consistent.
Tropes not explored previously done correctly.
Main girl being romantically interested towards Ash.
Ash getting to the finals.
Ash actually having some kind of 1 in 10000000 thing that centered the entire region around him.

So they were going for pretty much the peak of what they could do with the anime up to that point, and it was working well up until the conclusion of several of these things being a complete 180 from what they had buildup for the fans, Ash lost the league in the finals, Serena romance plot obviously went nowhere, Ash-Greninja form was not ever implied to exist ever since, art style changed drastically, etc.

So it's not like it's a bad series or anything like that, because it's one of the best in the anime, but it definitely tried something too extreme when it came to hyping fans up for something that ended up disappointing most of them in the ending, I mean, the cope from "Down To The Fiery Finish!" is still as strong as ever.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
How I feel ? That it was a majestic and wonderful series. It is exact the opposite of the horror than came afterwards.
It ended wonderfully and cried when it was over
 

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
I hold the belief that practically all the things that have been going wrong with Pokemon have their root in no Z game and Ash not winning the Kalos League.
For me, it feels like if everything started to go "wrong" since then. Gen 6 is genuinely the most shafted Generation of them all. And since then there's been a "shift" on the fanbase, for the worst. Between XYZ not delivering at the end and the massive 180 right afterwards nothing has ever been the same.

Nobody is "mocking" XY because their characters lost. Diantha lost to The Main Brick Wall himself, and she was the FIRST person to get a "what?!" out of him in 120+ episodes. She surprised him, he admits she made him sweat.
Go look at the thread of the latest episode and see that post full of tweets of people dunking on Diantha because of how Leon humiliated her.
And seriously? Are you gonna pretend there was not HORDES of people mocking Alan for how Leon crushed him? C'mon man.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

"She can violate my rights"-Brock
Serena being neglected for the first year, the Mega Lucario arc, Ash being overglorified by everyone in the anime and the fanbase in general, Team Rocket appearing in almost every episode and were very obnoxious, Bonnie, and the boring generic fillers ruined it for me. The first year of XY was terrible and it felt like an extension of BW season 2: DA!
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Diantha lost to The Main Brick Wall himself, and she was the FIRST person to get a "what?!" out of him in 120+ episodes. She surprised him, he admits she made him sweat.
Exactly.
She gave him a fight and he was shocked when she blocked his G-MAX attack, I dont think it never happened to him
She is amazing
 

BlobbiBoi

Well-Known Member
Go look at the thread of the latest episode and see that post full of tweets of people dunking on Diantha because of how Leon humiliated her.
And seriously? Are you gonna pretend there was not HORDES of people mocking Alan for how Leon crushed him? C'mon man.

What I mean is there's not some big corporate push by TPC to hate XY just because both Alain and Diantha lost.

Of course fans are going to meme on the characters - Diantha's been getting mocked since people realised how easy she was in game terms, just like how people worship Cynthia's strength because of Gen 4 nostalgia even when she did EXACTLY what Leon did, anime wise.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
My main problem with XYZ is that most of the 'big change ups' turned out to be superficial hype bait in the long run, which wouldn't have been bad if they had still had a good journey in between it all, but XYZ was pretty much a total return to the old formula at its most lethargic being used as a perpetual crutch. COTD and TR at their dullest and least effective, and interrupting ANY plot that looked like it would be divergent from the norm, the protagonists being kinda reactive only and lacking in agency outside the big arc moments, most of the Pokemon losing their personality because the extremely crisp animation couldn't practically hold their evolved designs onscreen besides the bare minimum.

I don't think the loss and return to status quo is a disappointment in itself, but simply because XY by that point had COMPLETELY given up trying new storytelling (or just making the old storytelling feel fresh) or really fleshing out the characters in new ways anymore, something BW beforehand had at least dabbled in. People wanted SOMETHING meaningful from the series in the end but instead it turned out to be a dupe, nothing had changed in the end. This could have worked with XY, it's whole motif in fact is that 'losing isn't meaningless, it's the journey that counts' but the journey is so lethargic in itself, very little in fact is made important out of said losses. They knew the hype bait would hold any of the fluff in between.

Heck I'd argue XY is the most paper thin that the formula was driving anything over the actual characters and not even bothering with a HOW they get from A to B anymore, Aria and Alain kinda won in a 'just because' sort of way rather than an effective final strategy, the bad guys were beaten by the usual legendary pinky flicking them out of existance over any real exerted effort, and Greninja's departure felt so quickly tacked on that it's like they couldn't even be bothered to make some sort of excuse why he can't stay. Everything else just had the usual tricks like Team Rocket butt in as an easy plot breaker. There's a real "Look, you know how it's gonna end, do we REALLY need to put the whole effort into it again?" feel to it's story flow. You do if you hype baited it NOT ending that way.

SM afterwards not only genuinely opening more floodgates but actually being far more experimental and character driven in terms of basic storytelling felt like them acknowledging they couldn't keep that up another series, saying there's gonna be change when really its as stagnant and formulaic as ever and they weren't even gonna TRY and make that element compelling.
 
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janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
What I mean is there's not some big corporate push by TPC to hate XY just because both Alain and Diantha lost.

Of course fans are going to meme on the characters - Diantha's been getting mocked since people realised how easy she was in game terms, just like how people worship Cynthia's strength because of Gen 4 nostalgia even when she did EXACTLY what Leon did, anime wise.
Well apparently there r many internet bullies unfortunately
 

BlobbiBoi

Well-Known Member
SM afterwards not only genuinely opening more floodgates but actually being far more experimental and character driven in terms of basic storytelling felt like them acknowledging they couldn't keep that up another series, saying there's gonna be change when really its as stagnant and formulaic as ever and they weren't even gonna TRY and make that element compelling.

Agreed there. Almost everyone I spoke to who liked XYZ (which is most of my friends) say they were incredibly glad SM was more 'light hearted' and let them breathe after XYZ handling more mature themes and being more doom-and-gloom. Being more slice-of-life and fun was something I think they needed to do.

I was never terribly invested in XY's plots myself, its the fluid battle animation that I continue to go back and watch.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Agreed there. Almost everyone I spoke to who liked XYZ (which is most of my friends) say they were incredibly glad SM was more 'light hearted' and let them breathe after XYZ handling more mature themes and being more doom-and-gloom. Being more slice-of-life and fun was something I think they needed to do.

I was never terribly invested in XY's plots myself, its the fluid battle animation that I continue to go back and watch.
The funny thing is that SM probably has more contemplative and 'mature' storytelling than XYZ, which was really more about superficial grandeur. SM let its characters out of their bubble more often and dealt them problems that the formula couldn't just flick away for them, trauma, death, family squabbles. It's not super profound or anything but it definitively felt more powerful.

Heck even basic character conflicts I'd argue SM was more willing to force the characters to resolve them rather than wait for a bad guy to appear and make a common enemy for them or something (something even the big arcs like the Florges war and Team Flare ultimately cheated on). XY actually really had a feel that the characters and dynamics were allowed to be stagnant because they were never effectively challenged. Ash NOT being a perfect idol for Serena was dabbled in for one episode.....and then they gave up and let her have what she wanted again.

Also really, I think the show HAS to be more silly and whimsical to a degree. The premise is fundamentally stupid really. Not saying sincere storytelling can't be done, but XYZ never making fun of how absurd some of it was I feel took out some of the life.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Every time you hear of someone criticizing XY for being edgy, too dark, trying to hard to be shounen, too "mature" and what-not you just know they're someone who didn't watch XY at all and are just parroting the usual checkpoints they've heard from people who disliked XY.
Exactly
These r just internet bullies with bad taste
 

Remix2

Well-Known Member
Every time you hear of someone criticizing XY for being edgy, too dark, trying to hard to be shounen, too "mature" and what-not you just know they're someone who didn't watch XY at all and are just parroting the usual checkpoints they've heard from people who disliked XY.
That why I stop taking xy criticisms so seriously nowadays since it all it too dark and edgy/ ash having not personally when it clearly the opposite.
 

The Drawn Sword

Well-Known Member
XYZ Ash is the one true Ash. The current Ash is an usurper concocted by Tomiyasu who hated XY so much that he tried to destroy its amazing legacy. He turned Ash into a clown, humiliated Alain and Diantha, destroyed Ash’s face, and is trying his best to appeal to degenerate children. I can’t forgive him for destroying Serena, the holy and immaculate lady.
 
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