masdog
What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
Because of Lucario and the Mystery of Mew...
The movie where Ash met his
/We all know his Dad is Professor Oak. Right?
//Right?
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XYZ effect on fans and writers. How do you feel?
- Thread starter DarkusHeracross
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The movie where Ash met his
/We all know his Dad is Professor Oak. Right?
//Right?
Really while I think it could have been restructured to work, I think with how they played it, the two outcomes make perfect sense for each series.
In XY Ash's goal focus is pretty linear and overwhelming, and by the later points, risking in becoming toxic. With how they set up both him and Alain, you can kinda tell that they are setting up that this trophy isn't the be-all-end-all vindication. Given the more minimal focus on other elements of Ash's character (even the Snowbelle arc semi-admits the companion's dynamics of just idolising him are a bit shallow), I feel like him winning would just be validating his old self's ego and shallowness, that all he needs is to win a league to be a 'complete' person.
In SM, they branch out WAY more with Ash and him appreciating the rest of the world and accepting he's not this super-ace that he was in XY and WANTED to be in the OS. That's not what his journey and development was meant to be about. They also not only have more continuity calls to how Ash has progressed but set up the league as being a mere branch of his quest, not this ultimate achievement like it was hyped up as in XY, even asking the question "and then what?". Ash winning but only after he appreciates himself and the rest of the world around him is the ideal way to have him break through at last. Ash's arc is not about success, it is about contentment.
Also I must say that Ash's dumbfounded and later uncertain response to winning in SM was PERFECT. While I get XY Ash isn't emotionless, I'm still not sure if they would have plotted that out as satisfyingly if they had went that route. XY at that point needed a hero sturdy in the face of adversity, it was almost reliant on him staying stagnant as a person, while SM was all about having Ash respond to new challenges.
Really I think in a series like Pokemon where characters only sporadically achieve their goals, I think the key importance is not just winning, but developing how they RESPOND to finally winning. What is the next direction for them. This is why something like BW TR kinda fell flat, sure TR were big shots at last, but without their unique personalities and any real responses to this achievement, it felt empty. Even something like Jessie finally winning contests/showcases felt like it expanded her character way more due to how they played off a character so stubborn in the face of failure reacting to winning something at long last, how she first disbelieved it and expected it was because she cheated, how she actually risks her winning streak by letting her winning Pokemon go, how she actually wanted to EARN her ribbons and not just be handed her final one, how she actually ends the showcases HAPPY in runner up. Winning was just the start of Jessie's development in that case.
I don't think Ash winning in XY would have played into his character enough, it would have just felt like that one milestone finally being done with.
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janejane6178
Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
On one hand, this anime was wonderful and brought back many fans into the Pokemon world, like me
On the other hand, it sets the bar really high and ppl got used to the show being epic and appropriate
On the other hand, it sets the bar really high and ppl got used to the show being epic and appropriate
S and M never really acknowledges xy or os ash and S and M ash never responds to this previous incarnation of him. This sounds like you inserting something into the text based on a meta-thematic reading. Based on what we're shown, Ash already has "contentment" as of DP and B+W. This only really works in relation to x and y and kalos basically doesn't exist in s and m anyway.
sutellakiara
Shirona, my beloved...
I was gonna try to come up with a proper answer but that you're acting like if only SM Ash appreciates the world surrounding him and everything surrounding it like if Ash has never did that he got to Alola really simply made me not want to.
Also loved the XY Ash is a emotionless battlebot except not really except he really is that part too.
Could you quote what "part" you're talking about.
Shockingly might have to actually agree with you here. The issue isn't that Ash wasn't shown appreciating stuff that isn't battling("science is cool!'), the issue is that he was, and then inexplciably his inability to appreicate non-battling things was exposited as a character flaw and the show had him unnaturally fluctuate between ash being a cold mary-sue and a childish comic-relief character, even in contexts where you would expect the behavior to be flipped.
EX:
(pokemon's master is long dead? doesn't care)
(loses a meaningless gym battle? extestential crisis)
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I should have probably phrased that better. It's not that Ash hadn't developed in that regard before but more that SM was the finalization of it. Beforehand Ash was always going through each region in a semi rush to get all his badges, while SM is the one time he is just sitting down and absorbing everything around him with the actual battling the side attraction. XY Ash has matured and can appreciate other things but was still kinda linear focused on the league goal and his usual team building and heroics, responses to everything else feel a bit automated with him (which could just be down to formula, but also kinda feels like how a lot of real people act to things that just aren't the primary importance to them, they say the same polite "Oh, that's cool" and move on, it made it feel like Ash wasn't really absorbing much else, not even his companions a lot of the time), while I think SM is the first time he's kind of asked if that's really it. Again it's SM that asks "THEN what?" and Ash finds out he can't answer, he's just been so dead set on it all this time. I think XY Ash losing made sense because he hadn't QUITE yet learned it wasn't neccessarily his big endgame like he had in SM.
Also in terms of Ash "appreciating who he is" I mean that Ash doesn't have to be an idolised badass, it's not the definitive way to end a character arc. SM Ash is as clumsy and undignified as the OS Ash despite still retaining a lot of development and competence, and his relationships are clearly more down to earth than in XY, but that's fine for him now. He has gained a thick skin and just rides with it. This is what I mean. XY Ash was what OS Ash WANTED to be, while SM Ash is closer to OS Ash but with realistic self improvement.
Also in terms of Ash "appreciating who he is" I mean that Ash doesn't have to be an idolised badass, it's not the definitive way to end a character arc. SM Ash is as clumsy and undignified as the OS Ash despite still retaining a lot of development and competence, and his relationships are clearly more down to earth than in XY, but that's fine for him now. He has gained a thick skin and just rides with it. This is what I mean. XY Ash was what OS Ash WANTED to be, while SM Ash is closer to OS Ash but with realistic self improvement.
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SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
Hell no Ash winning the Kalos league, then becoming Regional champion of Alola would not have been as satisfying as him directly winning the league and being it's champion.
Alola as a region was the first region since ig Kanto that felt like well, Ash's, that he belonged there, that he had a connect with the region itself
Ash obviously appreciated the world building of each series, but SM's theme was to ham in the point of Alola's culture and how it tied into Ash, esp him settling down there actually, living in a family and just learning to BE in that place
Since Alola is the region he actually had a connection with, it was so much satisfying to see that be his first league win, and then to go on and beat Kukui to cement himself as Alola's champion. Don't really see the point of him winning XY's league if the champions league just gets cancelled and he starts from ground zero again
SM taking the approach it did to break the structure and allow a league win that even shocked Ash was the most satisfying way to do it that didn't feel just fan pleasing or trying to right a wrong perse
Alola as a region was the first region since ig Kanto that felt like well, Ash's, that he belonged there, that he had a connect with the region itself
Ash obviously appreciated the world building of each series, but SM's theme was to ham in the point of Alola's culture and how it tied into Ash, esp him settling down there actually, living in a family and just learning to BE in that place
Since Alola is the region he actually had a connection with, it was so much satisfying to see that be his first league win, and then to go on and beat Kukui to cement himself as Alola's champion. Don't really see the point of him winning XY's league if the champions league just gets cancelled and he starts from ground zero again
SM taking the approach it did to break the structure and allow a league win that even shocked Ash was the most satisfying way to do it that didn't feel just fan pleasing or trying to right a wrong perse
The phrasing is not changing the meaning of your claim. "finalization" is still "development". And it still doesn't work if we track the text because the text does not allude to or play-off choices/responses ash made/had in DP. Ash's character magically reverted to whatever "theme" they wanted to push.
When during sinnoh did Ash miss out on something because he failed to absorb something? Characterter arcs are only really character arcs when work off estabished patterns of cause and effect/action and consequence.
When did Ash Mature? When was it acknowledged that Ash used to be immature?
Except
1. Ash is not "dead-set" on it during the run-time of S and M
2. nor does S and M actually show us there was a point where Ash was consumed by his desire to win.
At best you have some lip service thrown in telling ash things he immediately agrees with(and has consistently agreed with throughout the series). Ash is magically saving all his friends and solving all their problems outside of pokemon battling. Even the one time someone actually takes issue with how he behaves(nyax), it immediately goes away as Ash gets to play the savior, again, without meaningfully changing his behavior.
Give me an example in S and M where Ash faces or causes a negative consequence due to behavior(emerging from a consistent character "defect"), changes in response to some stimulus, and behaves differently in a similar situation.
Maybe I missed something, but I cannot recall one.
Not being as big of an albatross(largely because he's not AS much of a factor narratively) as he was in XY is quite different from him having "realistic self-improvement".
Adobe123
Goodbye Ash & Pikachu, I'll miss you
Help me convince these bozos that they were only shilling BDSP and Legends: Arceus. https://boards.4channel.org/vp/thread/51664146
KirliaToon50
Snivy.
I already had a Amnesia so I don't need to know what 4chan look like but yeah I agree with mehmeh1: It's a bad thing to link 4chan so please delete it.
Don't waste your time with 4Chan, and don't post anything of that nature on here please....Thanks.
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