XYZ effect on fans and writers. How do you feel?

[Ryker101]

I loved XY when it aired, I followed the 1st season and XYZ throughout its run. I enjoyed the battles a lot and I liked the characters together. That being said I think they fumbled hard on the ending. The kalos league loss sticks out like and retroactively it’s hard for me to get invested in Ash’s and Alain’s rivalry when they just made him lose for no good reason. Both realistically and narratively it doesn’t make sense to me, so consider that a deal breaker if you will

I’m pretty indifferent to the rest tbh

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Bro you haven’t been on Serebii long if you never got a warning, infraction, or close to being banned from offending the biased users here.

You're weak if you havent been banned for one week a few times for offending the biased

 

[MetaMantis]

You're weak if you havent been banned for one week a few times for offending the biased

I got banned for one week for off topic, then when I questioned my ban one day after I was unbanned, I was banned for a further 2 weeks. Missed the discussion about the tournament recap episode. Boo hoo.

 

[satopi]

I agee with this. I think expecting a “mature” series that’s targeted towards children is a bit arbitrary. It’s possible having a mature conversation and topics but them overall trying to make Ash into a caricature of a teenager was not the right move.

The depression arc is a perfect example of how not to treat a friend when they’re down. You shouldn’t expect somebody to pull themselves from their bootstraps immediately and instead give them the time and space to deal with their feelings while supporting them like a certain Pokegirl did in DP.

Not throwning a fit because they can no longer be a shining hero and your inspiration because he’s having a bad moment

Yeah, I don’t find XY to be any more mature than the previous sagas. The depression arc, which is something we routinely get with each saga, wasn’t handled very well. Felt way too over dramatic with the scene where Ash slightly raised his voice to Serena when he asked her an innocent question. And Clemont kept his distance. Ash was given too much Talk no Jutsu as either a crutch to resolve the climax quickly or the solution to most conflicts. The comparison of Ash and his Pokémon being held captive by Lysandre to Jesus being sacrificed on the cross was so ridiculously bad, it was comical.

 

[DatsRight]

Yeah, I don’t find XY to be any more mature than the previous sagas. The depression arc, which is something we routinely get with each saga, wasn’t handled very well. Felt way too over dramatic with the scene where Ash slightly raised his voice to Serena when he asked her an innocent question. And Clemont kept his distance. Ash was given too much Talk no Jutsu as either a crutch to resolve the climax quickly or the solution to most conflicts. The comparison of Ash and his Pokémon being held captive by Lysandre to Jesus being sacrificed on the cross was so ridiculously bad, it was comical.

Really I think XY was actually mundane and limited in new challenges and potential, just with some superficial grandeur added onto it.

Like you said nearly EVERY conflict was solved the same way, Ash either gave a resolving speech or battled it away. 100% his comfort zone. Even more so since usually Team Rocket just butted into the conflict, thus disintergrating it ENTIRELY for a (normally very easy) common enemy. A grey war between territorial Pokemon which Ash can't intervene with? Oh, don't expect a third act for that one, it will turn into an Ash vs TR thing very soon.

For all people complain about SM and JN's storytelling, I have to say I feel they at least circumvented that problem, showing Ash having to solve problems a different way more often. Watching out for a grieving Pokemon or a companion suffering PTSD? Going Jane Goodall with a bunch of Passimian and their problems? Actually trying to understand a Pokemon's behaviour and biology rather than waiting for a bad guy to be the plot resolver? Even if the handling is more comical, I'd say that shows a lot more "maturity" from Ash than past instances of him just battling or motivational speaking, but a bit more badass about it.

I actually feel the one time XY NAILED this was the very early episode with Froakie playing up when they were trying to catch Fletchling. Ash instantly understood what was wrong and empathised with him, likely saving him the trouble of another disobidience arc. That was a good display of experience and maturity to me, and I feel if the series had kept up that sort of agency it would have held up.

 

[Kameinu]

Action hero Ash glorified by everyone around him. Same face pretty girl that has feelings for him and is obvious shipping bait. XY was almost tailored to be this perfect glory story for Ash, so of course the fallout of the Kalos League led to the reactions we got.

Even some of the more positive narratives like developing the Alain rivalry and the frog storyline felt like a build up on Ash’s progression up to DP. It felt like the natural next step. And then him loosing that League…

It’s like the bait, the good and the bad of XYZ all seemed to indicate one thing, Ash had a good shot to win and actually deserved to but was cucked out of it.

Serena as a character had so much potential. I don’t care what shippers say. Her being blatant ship bait and only being remembered as the companion pretty girl that crushed on Ash ****ing sucks. If one thing good came out of her is how they handled her in Journeys. It’s obvious the whole shipping angle left an odd taste with the writing staff.

As to Ash-Greninja, I think the problem with that is the same as with the other reserves, it’s just that this is harder to ignore if you’re touching the subject of the frog himself. They had to bullshit some way to not feature the form. It’s obvious from how all the reserves have been treated, the writers have been wanting to avoid them if they can out of fear or whatever of them overshadowing Lucario and the JN team. I bet they’re overwhelmed by how popular Greninja and the form are to this day.

I don’t know. I kinda also get the feeling like the different directors really each want to force their own take on the show without wanting to accept a balance in respecting or incorporating what came before. That’s why the Brock Era of the anime is peak.

 

[satopi]

I actually enjoyed XY(&Z) as it was airing and still enjoyed certain aspects of it but the amount of people glorifying it as it being the saga to when Pokémon got back to “being good”, or how much of a masterpiece it is unlike the previous sagas is ridiculous. Getting flamed over the slightest critiques (when we all know Serebii is the only site where XY(&Z) got some criticism) is fandom policing at worst. I’m one of the biggest fans/defenders of BW and even I can see the flaws, mistakes, and wasted potential it had.

Really I think XY was actually mundane and limited in new challenges and potential, just with some superficial grandeur added onto it.

Like you said nearly EVERY conflict was solved the same way, Ash either gave a resolving speech or battled it away. 100% his comfort zone. Even more so since usually Team Rocket just butted into the conflict, thus disintergrating it ENTIRELY for a (normally very easy) common enemy. A grey war between territorial Pokemon which Ash can't intervene with? Oh, don't expect a third act for that one, it will turn into an Ash vs TR thing very soon.

You nailed it right there! It got redundant even though I felt like in the beginning of XY, the TRio seemed to be getting a bit of competency in holding their own in battle. Also, when James first caught Mareanie, they held their own in battle particularly, their Pokémon against Ash. It’s just nice seeing the TRio get wins and some sort of well awaited recognition on screen after their hard times in AG & DP. They felt well placed in SM while they felt pretty shoehorned in with the conflict in the Team Flare arc.

For all people complain about SM and JN's storytelling, I have to say I feel they at least circumvented that problem, showing Ash having to solve problems a different way more often. Watching out for a grieving Pokemon or a companion suffering PTSD? Going Jane Goodall with a bunch of Passimian and their problems? Actually trying to understand a Pokemon's behaviour and biology rather than waiting for a bad guy to be the plot resolver? Even if the handling is more comical, I'd say that shows a lot more "maturity" from Ash than past instances of him just battling or motivational speaking, but a bit more badass about it.

Exactly! I loved that in SM, they showed Ash using different ways to resolve an issue while still being his style. Just like how he won his battle against Gladion by countering his Dusk Form Lycanroc with Counter. And don’t forget when he wouldn’t allow himself to capture Rowlet if it meant him being the sole reason to separate him from his family. The same was done to Poipole. Or the way he took the backseat in some conflicts (Mallow engaging with Oranguru/Lana tackling Wishiwashi, Lillie going through her fear of touching Pokémon, Rotom creating and resolving his own issues like when he couldn’t get back as the Pokédex or him being a director’s assistant.) Also his achievements being rewarded like when he got his photo taken after helping with the conflict and later on, gaining a partner for Officer Jenny.

I actually feel the one time XY NAILED this was the very early episode with Froakie playing up when they were trying to catch Fletchling. Ash instantly understood what was wrong and empathised with him, likely saving him the trouble of another disobidience arc. That was a good display of experience and maturity to me, and I feel if the series had kept up that sort of agency it would have held up.

Yeah XY was really nice. I also understood how Clemont was easily inspired by Ash more than Serena was with how Ash always took the lead and thrived in what Clemont lacked. It was just terrible how it all went down the drain after an incredible show down between them. He was also very patient with Goomy as it quickly evolved. His maturity and past experiences showed during the conflict in the wetlands.

 

[Krackochu]

XYZ Ash is the one true Ash. The current Ash is an usurper concocted by Tomiyasu who hated XY so much that he tried to destroy its amazing legacy. He turned Ash into a clown, humiliated Alain and Diantha, destroyed Ash’s face, and is trying his best to appeal to degenerate children. I can’t forgive him for destroying Serena, the holy and immaculate lady.

This legitimately reads like parody and yet janejane has convinced me that people like this exist also Twitter.

 

[Shadao]

The XY series came at the heels of Best Wishes, which contained one of the worst portrayals of Ash Ketchum as both a trainer and a character. The reset button was not working, and it only fed to the perception of Ash being a loser. So what was the solution to all of this? You give Ash skinner clothes and Red's hat. And already, when I saw that XY design, I knew it was something special.

2013 was also the year that Pokémon Origins came out. The miniseries that supposedly was better than the main anime with "darker" themes and "better trainer" Red and "more epic battles with no stock backgrounds". A combination of BW 10 Year Old Dumb Ash, "edgy" Red's fandom, and Ash's more mature XY design... That was the perfect storm for XY to forever redefine Ash.

And I do believe it Ash's portrayal in SM and JN can be traced back to Ash's portrayal in XY. Or rather, how he is meant to be perceived by other characters.

Prior to XY, Ash always been the get-no-respect trainer from OS to BW. He's berated for being an immature kid or a poor trainer. His achievements gets laughed off even if it's good (Max comes into mind). And every time he goes to a new region, there's always an attempt to soft-reset him and Pikachu. Best Wishes is the straw that broke the camel's back considering how people loathed Iris for calling Ash "Such a kid" and gave no respect to Trip.

In contrast, XY Ash was given admiration and role model treatment from his peers and if they had not heard his exploits before, they will soon. Ash himself hasn't really changed in terms of personality, but it only shows us that his core personality isn't the problem. It's actually endearing and the reason why people still follow Ash after all this time (even through BW). What has changed is the people's attitude towards him. By making Ash into a famous trainer and role model, the postive qualities of Ash are emphasized far more than the negative qualities (which was more common when people berat Ash) and thus Ash ends up appearing mature, cool and badass without resorting to have Red's stoic and serious personality. This perception is why the Kalos League hurt a lot for many fans because XY was the first series where Ash was finally getting the respect he deserved. And thus the Kalos League would be the nail on the coffin of "Ash is a Loser" memes.

Consequently, because of XY, every series took great care of ensure that no matter what changes or comedy may be made to the show, Ash will always remain a badass trainer that everyone looks up to.

 

[DatsRight]

The XY series came at the heels of Best Wishes, which contained one of the worst portrayals of Ash Ketchum as both a trainer and a character. The reset button was not working, and it only fed to the perception of Ash being a loser. So what was the solution to all of this? You give Ash skinner clothes and Red's hat. And already, when I saw that XY design, I knew it was something special.

2013 was also the year that Pokémon Origins came out. The miniseries that supposedly was better than the main anime with "darker" themes and "better trainer" Red and "more epic battles with no stock backgrounds". A combination of BW 10 Year Old Dumb Ash, "edgy" Red's fandom, and Ash's more mature XY design... That was the perfect storm for XY to forever redefine Ash.

And I do believe it Ash's portrayal in SM and JN can be traced back to Ash's portrayal in XY. Or rather, how he is meant to be perceived by other characters.

Prior to XY, Ash always been the get-no-respect trainer from OS to BW. He's berated for being an immature kid or a poor trainer. His achievements gets laughed off even if it's good (Max comes into mind). And every time he goes to a new region, there's always an attempt to soft-reset him and Pikachu. Best Wishes is the straw that broke the camel's back considering how people loathed Iris for calling Ash "Such a kid" and gave no respect to Trip.

In contrast, XY Ash was given admiration and role model treatment from his peers and if they had not heard his exploits before, they will soon. Ash himself hasn't really changed in terms of personality, but it only shows us that his core personality isn't the problem. It's actually endearing and the reason why people still follow Ash after all this time (even through BW). What has changed is the people's attitude towards him. By making Ash into a famous trainer and role model, the postive qualities of Ash are emphasized far more than the negative qualities (which was more common when people berat Ash) and thus Ash ends up appearing mature, cool and badass without resorting to have Red's stoic and serious personality. This perception is why the Kalos League hurt a lot for many fans because XY was the first series where Ash was finally getting the respect he deserved. And thus the Kalos League would be the nail on the coffin of "Ash is a Loser" memes.

Consequently, because of XY, every series took great care of ensure that no matter what changes or comedy may be made to the show, Ash will always remain a badass trainer that everyone looks up to.

I feel like SM and JN are sort of the middle ground in that regard. They take BOTH of Ash's reputations but chart one after the other.

In most cases, Ash starts off a very humble simple-looking character and then vindicates himself in some way that shows he's actually quite competent (see how say, he pratfalls into the Alola School and is warned against fighting Team Skull, only to go to town on all their Pokemon).

In most cases this leads the other characters to stop insistantly putting down Ash, but they don't treat him with the same distancing aura that XY gave him, since his humanized sillier side was often still their first impression of him. It tends to focus more on the enigmatic element that series gave him, that he's a character that's kind of hard to figure out because there's two such contrasting sides to him, which I suppose is a sort of organic reputation after five or more regions of training. He still gets criticised and is treated as no less special as the other group members, but the world isn't adamant on ignoring everything he accomplishes anymore, largely because it's too baffling a spectacle to witness.

 

[janejane6178]

I feel that xyz made standards very high
And then was disappointed when we got an inappropriate school with random children
JN was less worse at least

 

[Krackochu]

Look I'll say this because I do enjoy XYZ.

It was the first region where ash actually got special treatment and I mean real special treatment.

Ash Greninja no matter if you hate or like him he was Ash's first real special Pokemon. This started a trend.


Next came my favorite ash cap Pikachu god I love them screw all the stupid humans wearing Ash's stuff Pikachu is the real deal baby. Just wish he had lgpe stats for him. ;-;

Then we got ash catching a ultra beast and a mythical

After that ash straight up just caught a Dragonite and got mega Lucario alongside a Gengar.


Ash isn't like those other girls anymore.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I'm getting tired of it, Serena, amourshipping, XY Ash, and Greninja/Ash-Greninja getting constantly brought up in almost every thread in one way or another tbh.

 

[DatsRight]

Look I'll say this because I do enjoy XYZ.

It was the first region where ash actually got special treatment and I mean real special treatment.

Ash Greninja no matter if you hate or like him he was Ash's first real special Pokemon. This started a trend.


Next came my favorite ash cap Pikachu god I love them screw all the stupid humans wearing Ash's stuff Pikachu is the real deal baby. Just wish he had lgpe stats for him. ;-;

Then we got ash catching a ultra beast and a mythical

After that ash straight up just caught a Dragonite and got mega Lucario alongside a Gengar.


Ash isn't like those other girls anymore.

The one bonus I see, even for those who hate Ash, is that said series have also been inclined to give the other protagonists similar perks to make the plot flow seem more organic and less like Ash is super endowed. Ash opened those floodgates for several characters, not just himself.

Ash got the regional gimmick, they give it to Kiawe first to establish it, then let the other companions get it.
Ash got an Ultra Beast, Gladion/Lillie later get one.
Ash got a mythical, Gladion and Mallow get one first with Lillie and Goh following later.
Ash became Champion, so free game to make Iris one too, with several other companions also getting some culmination in their goals too.

XY stands out because it's the start of Ash getting special treatment, but none of the other companions get in on it (granted AshGreninja is part compensation for Ash never getting Mega Evolution).

 

[janejane6178]

I like XY/XYZ, but It was too self-contained and relied too much on its action scenes. Greninja's original design was dumb with the tongue scarf so it getting all the focus was annoying. The League itself was fine, just rushed the opening rounds too much. Poor Trevor and Charizard Y, the better Mega. The romance stuff was basically irrelevant anyway.

Unpopular opinion, but I think that it was wonderful that XY/Z was self contained. It didnt rely on nostalgia to get massive amount of hype.
For example, JN got most of its hype by having old character cameos...XY/Z managed to do it without any.

 

[GarchompTheAssassin]

I like XY but its lack of continuity was criminal - I can't get behind this 'it being self-contained was a good thing' argument at all.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

**** the Alola League and WorldAshKetchumDay forever. I hate SM and the Alola League because he shouldn’t of won in a shitty art style and acting like a five year old.
SM took everything away from me

 

[Alolan Glaceon]

The end of the series disappointed me a lot. Ash actually deserved to win this Pokemon League. It was similar to DP where there was the champion and his rivals as well as e4. Everyone was in DP. I regret that the league was cut so much and they didn't give everything from the beginning it would be better. I like this series, but I just do not support fanaticism in relation to this series and all of them

 

[MetaMantis]

**** the Alola League and WorldAshKetchumDay forever. I hate SM and the Alola League because he shouldn’t of won in a shitty art style and acting like a five year old.
SM took everything away from me

Who's the 5 year old here? Apart from the guy needlessly ranting about something that happened years ago.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

SM took everything away from me

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO