XYZ effect on fans and writers. How do you feel?

[Kameinu]

XY Ash wasn't a battle robot either

That’s the biggest personality trait I got from him aside from being adored by everyone. Or action hero adored by everyone.

He felt pretty dull compared to his OS-DP portrayal.

 

[pickapika]

That’s the biggest personality trait I got from him aside from being adored by everyone. Or action hero adored by everyone.

He felt pretty dull compared to his OS-DP portrayal.

i think, with the exception of when he was learning the ropes initally at kanto(under a director who was aiming for something more cynical/subversive), ash has generally been dull. But that was more tolerable when his characterization wasn't the entire story. Also at the very least, ash had a degree of internal consistency, whereas XY ash is constantly flipping from comic relief to melodramatic shonen protagonist, often where it doesn't make sense. (Ex: Ash is comic-reliefy when he learns the old lady a pokemon is waiting for has died, is melodramatic shonen protagonist when losing a meaningless gym battle to a stranger)

 

[DatsRight]

As I mentioned before, XY was kind of the start of the more enigmatic take on Ash, the 'weird' Ash that seemed like a normal air headed kid at face value but would take everyone by utter surprise when he got into action. I feel like it was in primordial state at this point because it tended to not be as rounded in XY, focusing more on secondary perspectives of the character and his more positive qualities. Most of what Ash himself actually says and does is pretty generic here, like he has this ready made set of stock phrases and actions every time.

SM onwards focuses more on character dynamics and interactions, not to mention has a wilder sense of comedy and what the characters are allowed to do to run a plot, thus it adds a complimenting degree of spontenaety to Ash and his group dynamics. SM even starts the same way as XY, with Ash acting like a super excited bumbler upon entry of the region but then turning into a badass as soon as trouble occurs, just SM rolls more with both sides of that instead of the former slowly being forgotten.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

I'd imagine writers looked at XY as an example of overpromising and underdelivering.

XY built anticipation among its viewers like no other season of the show, simply by presenting Ash as a big deal. When every other character is astonished by Ash in some way and when very strong battlers mark him as someone they want to battle, viewers will start believing he is someone special. Couple that with dynamic, explosive (and easily clippable/sharable) battle sequences and you get a compelling reason to watch the show. Both SM and JN have continued this, albeit with their own flavour, and it's safe to say the days of Ash being this paradox of experienced yet occasionally incompetent at the most convenient of moments are long gone now. Even his negative qualities are nowadays presented as quirks that simply make him him rather than anything detrimental. This is in stark contrast to the OS-BW era, where these negative qualities were used as a way to mock him or puncture his ego, while at the same time his positive traits weren't emphasised nearly as much.

Yet, what did it all amount to? Having a companion with unambiguous romantic feelings for Ash was intriguing, but it resolved entirely one-sidedly with zero insight into how Ash felt about Serena and minimal impact on his character. Ash went further in the league than ever before, but still lost, despite having the one in one million Greninja with the special transformation, for no other reason than status quo. There's no introspection on the defeat, no time for self-doubt or anything like that, because there's a region that needs saving and only Ash can do that for reasons. It ends the same as the preceding seasons, with nothing really changing only in this case it stings more because so much of the build-up made viewers think something was going to change (to say nothing of the inflammatory episode titles). This wasn't a result of "suits" meddling with the director's master plan, but of the director having too broad a scope for his story to satisfactorily conclude within the confines of a weekly TV anime.

It's possible the backlash to XY encouraged the show makers to "correct" things in SM, but I have doubts about this. SM would have started production well before the backlash even occurred. While they would have been aware of it, the decision to push ahead with SM, knowing it'd be a big shift for viewers, suggests they weren't overly concerned and had faith in the product.

Ultimately, that people still talk about XY to this day and feel so strongly about certain things proves it had a powerful appeal. It did plenty of things well and was the most polished version of the classic Pokemon adventure, but it's failure pay off the big promises it made proved its undoing.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I'd imagine writers looked at XY as an example of overpromising and underdelivering.

XY built anticipation among its viewers like no other season of the show, simply by presenting Ash as a big deal. When every other character is astonished by Ash in some way and when very strong battlers mark him as someone they want to battle, viewers will start believing he is someone special. Couple that with dynamic, explosive (and easily clippable/sharable) battle sequences and you get a compelling reason to watch the show. Both SM and JN have continued this, albeit with their own flavour, and it's safe to say the days of Ash being this paradox of experienced yet occasionally incompetent at the most convenient of moments are long gone now. Even his negative qualities are nowadays presented as quirks that simply make him him rather than anything detrimental. This is in stark contrast to the OS-BW era, where these negative qualities were used as a way to mock him or puncture his ego, while at the same time his positive traits weren't emphasised nearly as much.

Yet, what did it all amount to? Having a companion with unambiguous romantic feelings for Ash was intriguing, but it resolved entirely one-sidedly with zero insight into how Ash felt about Serena and minimal impact on his character. Ash went further in the league than ever before, but still lost, despite having the one in one million Greninja with the special transformation, for no other reason than status quo. There's no introspection on the defeat, no time for self-doubt or anything like that, because there's a region that needs saving and only Ash can do that for reasons. It ends the same as the preceding seasons, with nothing really changing only in this case it stings more because so much of the build-up made viewers think something was going to change (to say nothing of the inflammatory episode titles). This wasn't a result of "suits" meddling with the director's master plan, but of the director having too broad a scope for his story to satisfactorily conclude within the confines of a weekly TV anime.

It's possible the backlash to XY encouraged the show makers to "correct" things in SM, but I have doubts about this. SM would have started production well before the backlash even occurred. While they would have been aware of it, the decision to push ahead with SM, knowing it'd be a big shift for viewers, suggests they weren't overly concerned and had faith in the product.

Ultimately, that people still talk about XY to this day and feel so strongly about certain things proves it had a powerful appeal. It did plenty of things well and was the most polished version of the classic Pokemon adventure, but it's failure pay off the big promises it made proved its undoing.

Agree with this, especially on the KL bit. I do think that Ash has romantic feelings for Serena (Amourshipper speaking) and their relationship was clearly not one sided

 

[vondecayle]

I don't dislike XY but I can see why the production people and some fans might not like it
The new director of XY has said that XY had pushed certain boundaries for the anime mostly because the target audience is kids

And for many they like the boundaries they pushed ex: the Serena romantic subplot (amourshipping)
I can't find the source but many have repeated that the XY director wanted to appeal to older audiences unlike the previous series
Many have said that XY felt that the characters were more teens, etc which supports that
Things I think XY pushed boundaries on were the “maturity”, tone, and romance, among other things
But I think others didn't like those pushed boundaries
If someone wanted or was expecting a kid show than those aspects being changed would not like XY as much

Or just not like the more mature aspects

And some of those people can also be writers and whoever influences the series

Plus from a marketing and broadcasting viewpoint Pokemon (as a whole) is a kid brand they aren't trying to appeal to critics, teens/adults, etc it's not their target demographic

So there could have been a big enough internal reason to make the show kid friendly again

This may also mean to tone/scale back the “extreme” decisions XY did (romance, ash-greninja, etc)



Simply
XY made Pokémon a more teen/young adult show and there are people out there that want/prefer for Pokemon to be a kid series and dislike anything that can shift it away from that

And the behind-the-scenes people like some writers had “got their way” and got Pokemon back to more kid series in SM which carries on in JN


As for the XY characters and stuff in JN and probably the future

Due to them leaning away from the things that pushed boundaries in XY



They will more than likely never bring up the Serena kiss, and her crush on him may get reduced to being more ambiguous kinda like other crushes that were handled like a Drew or Kenny



Ash-Greninja is complicated but I think (imo) they might regret the actual form not necessarily the power up/bond as the anime did stretch things a bit too far from the games that I wouldn't be surprised if the Pokemon company would want to retcon it



Clemont Bonnie and Korinna were good in their episodes

Sometimes I wonder what the pokemon company is smoking. XY was totally watchable for kids, they didn’t need to dumb Ash down or make silly faces every three seconds to make it “kid friendly”. I’d argue kids prefer cool Ash Greninja over silly faces and school. Anyone who wants absurd inmaturity can go watch discovery kids.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Sometimes I wonder what the pokemon company is smoking. XY was totally watchable for kids, they didn’t need to dumb Ash down or make silly faces every three seconds to make it “kid friendly”. I’d argue kids prefer cool Ash Greninja over silly faces and school. Anyone who wants absurd inmaturity can go watch discovery kids.

BASED

 

[vondecayle]

The ending of XY was dissapointing to most fans, and it caused a rift among fans, some even stopped watching outright, but if you talk about XYZ on any pokefourm it always boils down to these things; ash greninja, serenas kiss and the ending.

These three things not only caused a rift amoung fans but I belive that the some of the writers back then and even now didnt agree with what XY brought to the table, as we see how Serenas return was handled, ash greninja getting removed from a flashback which leads some to say that they have retconned it (they havent offically done that), how they treated the Alian and Diantha battles in the Masters 8 etc,

So I want to ask, for those who did not like the XYZ and for those who did, which one of the three things I mentioned was the deal breaker for you? This is coming from someone who was only extremely dissapointed with how it ended, not with ash greninja or serena.

I must be in the minority, but I wasn’t disappointed by XY. In fact, after what happened in BW I never thought I would enjoy the anime again so I was pleasantly surprised by XY. I enjoyed this series from beginning to end.

 

[pickapika]

Sometimes I wonder what the pokemon company is smoking. XY was totally watchable for kids, they didn’t need to dumb Ash down or make silly faces every three seconds to make it “kid friendly”. I’d argue kids prefer cool Ash Greninja over silly faces and school. Anyone who wants absurd inmaturity can go watch discovery kids.

It's telling that every pro-xy argument posted in the last 2 weeks can be addressed with me just copy and pasting:

"Maturity of tone" does not determine "complexity of narrative"

The "maturity of themes" have no bearing on how good or bad a story is.

"SCIENCE IS SO COOOL" was obviously the mature hard-hitting shonen that turned off the kiddie fans

Does anyone here have a pro-xy case beyond "it's mature!"?

 

[pickapika]

So what exactly should the Pokemon anime do in your opinion? Remove a lot of elements and the show just turns into a filler-fest with 8 Gyms like most of Johto was with little to no development for Ash's companions and no rivals/villains.

Flesh out one of it's various "characters" more than the jiggly puff from johto?

What does "filler" have to do with xy consistently forcing big payoffs involving things with nonsensical or non-exisistent set-up

 

[MetaMantis]

Arguably, despite the silly faces, SM has moments darker than XY

 

[vondecayle]

It's telling that every pro-xy argument posted in the last 2 weeks can be addressed with me just copy and pasting:



Does anyone here have a pro-xy case beyond "it's mature!"?

I don’t go around these forums reading everything you post, but where did I said that XY was mature? I was merely answering to the perception that the writers or some people have of what constitutes kid friendly.

 

[pickapika]

I don’t go around these forums reading everything you post, but where did I said that XY was mature? I was merely answering to the perception that the writers or some people have of what constitutes kid friendly.

hate has blinded me. I completely misread your posts

 

[TurboAceK]

Sometimes I wonder what the pokemon company is smoking. XY was totally watchable for kids, they didn’t need to dumb Ash down or make silly faces every three seconds to make it “kid friendly”. I’d argue kids prefer cool Ash Greninja over silly faces and school. Anyone who wants absurd inmaturity can go watch discovery kids.

I think it depends on which kid demographic as there's a difference between the 0-5 kids/babies, 6-12 year old kids and the 12-17 year old kids/teens

I agree XY is still a kid shows at its core but if the shift was from BW to XY was 6-12 to 12-17 then the company or whoever might want that 6-12 demographic back

As the 6 year old that they want to sell toys and the games too might respond better to the “silly” SM than a “mature” XY for example


I noticed this with a lot of cartoons too, like Teen Titans, people loved the 2003 version but the higher ups had to change the demographic for whatever reason (I think it was toy sales) and so then they made Teen Titans Go for a younger audience and (sadly) it's arguably more successful than the original teen titans

I don't know the numbers for Pokemon but I imagine a similar reason was used for XY to SM and forward

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I think it depends on which kid demographic as there's a difference between the 0-5 kids/babies, 6-12 year old kids and the 12-17 year old kids/teens

I agree XY is still a kid shows at its core but if the shift was from BW to XY was 6-12 to 12-17 then the company or whoever might want that 6-12 demographic back

As the 6 year old that they want to sell toys and the games too might respond better to the “silly” SM than a “mature” XY for example


I noticed this with a lot of cartoons too, like Teen Titans, people loved the 2003 version but the higher ups had to change the demographic for whatever reason (I think it was toy sales) and so then they made Teen Titans Go for a younger audience and (sadly) it's arguably more successful than the original teen titans

I don't know the numbers for Pokemon but I imagine a similar reason was used for XY to SM and forward

SM was like for 4-8. I was 12 when SM came out and hated it when I first saw the poster of Ash looking and acting like a doofus.

 

[Kazuniya]

Arguably, despite the silly faces, SM has moments darker than XY

SM really impressed me with really heavy episodes such as Stoutland dying (what an excellent episode) or the episode with Mallow's mom, where we learn Mallow lashed out at her dying mom and didn't get a chance to apologize before her mom passed. Both of those get me very emotional every time I watch them. They're just so compelling.

 

[mehmeh1]

I noticed this with a lot of cartoons too, like Teen Titans, people loved the 2003 version but the higher ups had to change the demographic for whatever reason (I think it was toy sales) and so then they made Teen Titans Go for a younger audience and (sadly) it's arguably more successful than the original teen titans

tbh that one's not that good of a comparison. TT was long over by the time Go came out, and TT itself got an extra season and a movie due to its success (since it was gonna end with s4)

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

There is a massive difference in content for 6-12 year olds and 12-17 year olds. For example, content in Japan aimed at 12-17 year olds includes big Shonen hits like Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia. Content aimed at 11 and younger is something like... Pokemon, for example.

If you're wondering what demographic Pokemon is aimed at, consider if there is any actual violence, any depictions of gambling/alcohol, and any explicit nudity and sexual references because these are the things you find in shows aimed at mature audiences. Go back through XY and ask yourself if ANY of that appears. You'll most likely find it doesn't. It doesn't even exist in mild forms, like you'd find in a typical Shonen property.

Every Pokemon season appeals to the same age demographic. The difference is which tastes they're aiming for within that age range. XY to SM wasn't an attempt to appeal to a younger demo, but a pivot towards a different set of tastes.

 

[TurboAceK]

tbh that one's not that good of a comparison. TT was long over by the time Go came out, and TT itself got an extra season and a movie due to its success (since it was gonna end with s4)

Well nothing is going to be 1:1
Very few shows can compare to Pokemon it has been on over 20 years

I just used teen titans as it has a maturer version and a sillier version but are both kid shows but for different audiences

Maybe a closer comparison would be a Ben 10 but I don't much about it tbh I know there's an art shift after the one when he's 15 don't know about the tone or anything

There is a massive difference in content for 6-12 year olds and 12-17 year olds. For example, content in Japan aimed at 12-17 year olds includes big Shonen hits like Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia. Content aimed at 11 and younger is something like... Pokemon, for example.

If you're wondering what demographic Pokemon is aimed at, consider if there is any actual violence, any depictions of gambling/alcohol, and any explicit nudity and sexual references because these are the things you find in shows aimed at mature audiences. Go back through XY and ask yourself if ANY of that appears. You'll most likely find it doesn't. It doesn't even exist in mild forms, like you'd find in a typical Shonen property.

Every Pokemon season appeals to the same age demographic. The difference is which tastes they're aiming for within that age range. XY to SM wasn't an attempt to appeal to a younger demo, but a pivot towards a different set of tastes.

Yeah I'm not saying it was literally 12-17 was just using that as a way to say there's differences in kids tv. XY isn't as mature as the internet would make you believe

But XY was trying to get older audiences the director said that but maybe more like the 13-14-year-olds to make the range 6-14, they didn't change the tone or content of the show but they just added aspects that potential 13-14-year-olds would enjoy
and maybe afterward they just went back to 6-12, that's all I'm trying to say

 

[mehmeh1]

Well nothing is going to be 1:1
Very few shows can compare to Pokemon it has been on over 20 years

I just used teen titans as it has a maturer version and a sillier version but are both kid shows but for different audiences

Maybe a closer comparison would be a Ben 10 but I don't much about it tbh I know there's an art shift after the one when he's 15 don't know about the tone or anything

Ben 10 is a......strange situation
OG is OG, then they aged him up to 15 for Alien Force and made the tone more serious, but then execs wanted Ben to be more childlike, but after AF s2, instead of rebooting or anything they just blew up his ego by a lot (in-universe it was because he got a huge ego boost after saving the universe in AF s2, but still), then they kinda toned it down a bit but made him really inconsistently serious in Ultimate Alien, and then for Omniverse there was another huge tone shift to make the series wackier (also new director and all), but still kept it as a sequel (tho with a bunch of retcons, kinda handwaved by "the universe got blown up and Ben recreated it") and made a few episodes in it starring 11 y/o Ben as well. Then a few years after OV they decided to do a full on reboot