Your views on abortion

[darkjigglypuff]

Uh, I don't know, it's a sign that you are alive?!



My bad, I meant 18.

You know what else has a heartbeat? Spiders. Just sayin'.

 

[Slightly Insane]

I'm still waiting for proof that a fetus during the first trimester must be, undoubtedly, a living thing. It's growing, yes, but that doesn't make it living.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(biology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_cell_mass

The cell is the basic structural and functional unit of all known living organisms. It is the smallest unit of life that is classified as a living thing, and is often called the building block of life.

In early embryogenesis of most eutherian mammals, the inner cell mass (abbreviated ICM and also known as the embryoblast or pluriblast, the latter term being applicable to all mammals) is the mass of cells inside the primordial embryo that will eventually give rise to the definitive structures of the fetus. This structure forms in the earliest steps of development, before implantation into the endometrium of the uterus has occurred. The ICM lies within the blastocoele (more correctly termed "blastocyst cavity", as it is not strictly homologous to the blastocoele of anamniote vertebrates) and is entirely surrounded by the single layer of cells called trophoblast.

Not really all that hard. `-`

You know what else has a heartbeat? Spiders. Just sayin'.

You know what else spiders are? Not human. Just sayin'.

 

[darkjigglypuff]

You know what else spiders are? Not human. Just sayin'.

You know what else isn't human? Fetuses. Just sayin'.

 

[Mawile412]

You know what else isn't human? Fetuses. Just sayin'.

owned.

i hate when guys think abortion is wrong. They really can't understand at all what women go through during pregnancy. What about Rape victims or pregnant teens? you shouldn't make them carry a baby that's a horrible reminder of their rapist or a complete mistake that they can't take care of. And adoption isn't always "here i'll give you my baby!" "hey thanks! " no it doesn't happen like that

 

[2Percent-Miltank]

I believe that women should have a choice. Let's say a woman is raped and becomes pregnant because of it. The rape obviously wasn't her fault, and becoming pregnant from it wasn't her doing either. She shouldn't have to give birth to it if it's a situation like that.

Also, one must think about the psychological repercussions of something so traumatic and severe as rape. If I became pregnant after being raped, which is undoubtedly an absolutely horrible experience, even though the child is also not at fault, I think it would be extremely hard for me to be happy about the pregnancy compared to becoming pregnant willingly by someone I love. Personally, I still don't think I could abort the child, but I hold absolutely no ill will for those who would.

To me, it's one thing if you were just plain stupid and didn't use protection and got pregnant. If that happened to me, I would at least give birth to the child, and if I wasn't ready to raise a baby, put it up for adoption.

So really, I am open minded enough to say that I am "pro choice." I believe women deserve to choose whether they want to give birth to a child or not, though the decision should not be made lightly. Not only will you be giving up a life, but you yourself could have severe psychological trauma from it.

 

[Slightly Insane]

You know what else isn't human? Fetuses. Just sayin'.

Okay. So what are they? Are fetuses in a completely different kingdom than all other organisms? Obviously not. Are all fetuses human? Obviously not. Fetuses that are a product of HUMAN sperm and HUMAN eggs are, believe it or not, HUMANS.

i hate when guys think abortion is wrong. They really can't understand at all what women go through during pregnancy. What about Rape victims or pregnant teens? you shouldn't make them carry a baby that's a horrible reminder of their rapist or a complete mistake that they can't take care of. And adoption isn't always "here i'll give you my baby!" "hey thanks! " no it doesn't happen like that

So your argument is:

"I can't counter the male's argument, so the male is wrong because he's a male."

It doesn't matter what gender we are. This is a matter of morals and biology. Stating that we can't have our opinions because we're male is extremely sexist and short sighted.

Let's put it like this. Say a woman (since you're sexist and couldn't relate to the story if it was a male) owned a house, and while she was at work somebody broke in and stole a credit card. Now she's lost thousands of dollars, and her life is pretty much screwed. Is she able to find somebody to steal from to sooth her problem?

Now apply this to rape. A twenty year old woman was raped, and now she is pregnant. She can't support a child. If she gives birth, her life is pretty much screwed. Does this mean that she can have an abortion, which is equivalent to murdering an unborn child? No, she cannot. Have you ever heard of "Two wrongs don't make a right"? It's crammed into kids' heads since they were two years old, yet it seems that thousands of adults can't seem to recall it.

And yes, adoption isn't like a baby auction. You can't just pop out a child and give it to the first person that wants it. You have to...*gasp* WORK to find a home! By the way, there are quite a few adoptive parents out there. I PERSONALLY know at LEAST 80 adopted children. Both of my siblings are adopted. It's not a small market.

 

[Tyrant Tar]

If a pregnant person is killed, it is often considered a double homicide, mother and potential child. YET, aborting a "potential child" isn't equal to murder in any way (i.e. a "necessary" one due to mother being unable to properly raise the child)?

With the recent disaster in Haiti, we've heard stories of people "rescuing" orphans via adoption. Perhaps a poor comparison, but it seems there are people out there willing to adopt.
Granted, there's the nine months of having to carry the baby, which I really can't properly comment on.

There's also the tricky, seemingly paradoxical problem of woman's rights vs. unborn's rights: does a woman have the right to terminate a *human* life within her? Restricting abortions to only the first few weeks sort of solves the issue, though it can end up sounding like "this murder is OK because this human doesn't look human."

 

[Tim the turtle]

A twenty year old woman was raped, and now she is pregnant. She can't support a child. If she gives birth, her life is pretty much screwed. Does this mean that she can have an abortion, which is equivalent to murdering an unborn child? No, she cannot. Have you ever heard of "Two wrongs don't make a right"?

A woman is kidnapped by a group of overly zealous music enthusiasts. When she awakens from the chloroform she finds herself attatched to a famous violinist. The violinist is unconscious and cannot communicate with the woman. The kidnappers inform the woman that the violinist is suffering from a debilitating illness that will kill him unless she (with her compatible bloodtype) is hooked up to him via a drip for nine months. Is she morally obligated to sacrifice nine months of her life to keep the dying man alive even though she was forced into it against her will?

 

[Grei]

Okay. So what are they? Are fetuses in a completely different kingdom than all other organisms? Obviously not. Are all fetuses human? Obviously not. Fetuses that are a product of HUMAN sperm and HUMAN eggs are, believe it or not, HUMANS.

So a fetus, which has no will or real personality or thoughts or anything, should have the same rights as an independent human being? Are you seriously suggesting this? How about we give rights to rocks! Or maybe soda cans!

The debate here should be, when is a fetus considered a human being? Which, contrary to what you think, hasn't been proved yet.

Now apply this to rape. A twenty year old woman was raped, and now she is pregnant. She can't support a child. If she gives birth, her life is pretty much screwed. Does this mean that she can have an abortion, which is equivalent to murdering an unborn child? No, she cannot. Have you ever heard of "Two wrongs don't make a right"? It's crammed into kids' heads since they were two years old, yet it seems that thousands of adults can't seem to recall it.

Actually, technically, she can. Abortion is legal. : )

And it's not murdering if it's not considered a living human yet. The sources you posted in response to my post don't really mean anything, especially since I already compared the rights of a fetus to the rights of my skin. Should my skin have freedom of speech? What about the right to vote? No? My layer of cells shouldn't have rights?

So what makes a ball of cells any different, really?

 

[Slightly Insane]

So a fetus, which has no will or real personality or thoughts or anything, should have the same rights as an independent human being? Are you seriously suggesting this? How about we give rights to rocks! Or maybe soda cans!

A newborn baby doesn't have any personalities. It doesn't have any will. Any thoughts it has are really irrelevant because it was just born, so what can it really think about? Doesn't make it legal to murder a newborn baby.

Anyways, it has none because it is STILL GROWING. And with the exception of a miscarriage, it is GUARANTEED to grow into an independent human being UNLESS IT'S KILLED.

The debate here should be, when is a fetus considered a human being? Which, contrary to what you think, hasn't been proved yet.

Actually, the debate is "Your views on abortion". Anything else is an opinion.

Since you refused to refute my previous statement without belittling the obvious lack of features in a fetus, I will explain it indepth.

Since the fetus grows into a newborn child, and further on an adult, from the species Homo Sapiens, the fetus comes out of an organism from the species Homo Sapiens, and we have no record of any organism being birthed from an organism from the species Homo Sapiens that WASN'T an organism from the species Homo Sapiens (barring the wacko stories from Asia where women get invaded by other species), I think it's safe to conclude that any organism that comes out from a Homo Sapien is indeed a Homo Sapien.

Actually, technically, she can. Abortion is legal. : )

But the murdering of humans isn't. Please read the fourteenth amendment.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Let's break this up a bit.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

This simply states that any person (Human being) that's born/naturalized in the USA is a citizen of the USA and their state. This is no way suggests that anyone that isn't born isn't a person.

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;"

Self explanatory. Nobody can make a law that lessen the rights of USA citizens. But what does this mean for those who aren't USA citizens?

"nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

All human being(s) are person(s)
A fetus is a human being
Therefore, a fetus is a person.

A fetus can't be deprived from life. It is constitutionally wrong. It does not matter that it is being done. It is wrong.

And it's not murdering if it's not considered a living human yet. The sources you posted in response to my post don't really mean anything

I posted sources and used logic to prove that a fetus is a human being and alive. Do you care to refute? "It's wrong because I SAID SO" isn't an argument. It's infantile.

especially since I already compared the rights of a fetus to the rights of my skin. Should my skin have freedom of speech? What about the right to vote? No? My layer of cells shouldn't have rights?

Your skin does not and will not have thoughts, emotions, opinions, or feelings. Unlike a fetus, your skin will not grow into its own person, no matter how long it lives. It takes less than a year for a cell made from merged human sperm and egg to become a living baby, yet the average human lives about 77 years and they never produce another being from their skin.

So what makes a ball of cells any different, really?

It is human. Skin is an organ on the body, and actually your skin does have rights. Nobody can come with a knife and slash it off without penalty. You can't cut your own skin off without being accused of parasuicide, which is a criminal offense. In quite a few ways, your skin has more rights than a fetus, which is absurd because while your skin will never become anyone important, a fetus, which is the first stage of a human being, will be.

 

[GhostAnime]

But the murdering of humans isn't. Please read the fourteenth amendment.

What part of the constitution considers a fetus a human?

Also, you forgot this part:

All persons born..

I posted sources and used logic to prove that a fetus is a human being and alive.

You merely gave sources on why it's alive; but not why it could be deemed human enough.

 

[Slightly Insane]

What part of the constitution considers a fetus a human?

Also, you forgot this part:

All persons born..

Did you not read my post?

All human being(s) are person(s)
A fetus is a human being
Therefore, a fetus is a person.

You merely gave sources on why it's alive; but not why it could be deemed human enough.

If you care to refute my arguments on how a fetus is a human, we can have an intelligent debate. "I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I SAID SO" isn't an argument.

 

[GhostAnime]

All human being(s) are person(s)
A fetus is a human being
Therefore, a fetus is a person.

You expect me to buy this circular logic? You did not correctly link fetus to anything but 'a potential human being' or 'Human being through DNA', but these things do not innately point to 'IS a human being at the present time'.

In fact, circular logic isn't the only problem here, but also equivocation. We need to have a consistent definition on what 'human' is before we even continue. Is a human decided through DNA? Is it decided through potential? Is it emotions? What is it that makes us human exactly? You seem to be all over the place about the definition.

If you care to refute my arguments on how a fetus is a human

What's there to refute? You didn't do anything but say "All people are human, a fetus is a human!"

That doesn't even logically make sense.

 

[Slightly Insane]

You expect me to buy this circular logic? You did not correctly link fetus to anything but 'a potential human being' or 'Human being through DNA', but these things do not innately point to 'IS a human being at the present time'.

Okay. A fetus can be human through DNA but not really human. Yeah, that makes sense. Did you even read my post? I posted my reasons on why I believe a fetus is human, and your only refute is "You're wrong"?

Since the fetus grows into a newborn child, and further on an adult, from the species Homo Sapiens, the fetus comes out of an organism from the species Homo Sapiens, and we have no record of any organism being birthed from an organism from the species Homo Sapiens that WASN'T an organism from the species Homo Sapiens (barring the wacko stories from Asia where women get invaded by other species), I think it's safe to conclude that any organism that comes out from a Homo Sapien is indeed a Homo Sapien.

In fact, circular logic isn't the only problem here, but also equivocation. We need to have a consistent definition on what 'human' is before we even continue. Is a human decided through DNA? Is it decided through potential? Is it emotions? What is it that makes us human exactly? You seem to be all over the place about the definition.

I think it is blantly obvious that I believe our humanity is determined by our DNA. If you had read my post, you would know that.

What's there to refute? You didn't do anything but say "All people are human, a fetus is a human!"

That doesn't even logically make sense.

Don't waste my time. You obviously skimmed through my post without reading it. If you want to debate, actually READ your opponent's argument and refute it. If you don't want to debate, it's okay with me if you back out. Just don't waste my time.

 

[GhostAnime]

I think it is blantly obvious that I believe our humanity is determined by our DNA. If you had read my post, you would know that.

Yes, I read your post, but then you also said:

Your skin does not and will not have thoughts, emotions, opinions, or feelings.

Which would imply that your argument against cells that simply have human DNA are excused from the argument because of "emotions" (but a fetus clearly has none of these things as well).

Then you bring up "will" which hints out to 'potential'. I just wanted some clarification; and clearly your idea of a 'human' is changing with every response. If your idea of a human is merely DNA, then our hair cells, skin cells, or practically any cell on our body is is human DNA. If your argument is 'it WILL grow into a human' then you are simply admitting that it isn't fully grown enough to even give it any amount of respect yet.

Don't waste my time. You obviously skimmed through my post without reading it. If you want to debate, actually READ your opponent's argument and refute it. If you don't want to debate, it's okay with me if you back out. Just don't waste my time.

I like how you say this when you STILL haven't responded to the born part of my post.

Quit giving me this nonsense and actually tel me how the post makes sense. It is circular logic from just that post alone. I don't know if you know how proofs work or not but simply saying three lines like that isn't really "proof" of any argument for murder. For one, I'm not even sure of your definition of human yet as explained above and second, even if you have one, you have not shown a clear link between "persons" and "humans". It just sounds like 3 vague statements thrown together.

 

[Grass Guardian]

Just for the sake of my post count, I'll put my two sense.

I used to be firmly against abortion, but my views have changed a little. I'm not so outright against it anymore, but only if it's in the very early stages. Personally, I wouldn't feel right aborting after 2 months because after two months, the fetus has a brain. Some scientists believe that at 9 weeks, the fetus can start feeling the vibrations of the mother's voice.

I don't see any reason why a woman would wait longer than 8 weeks. Within 4 weeks of conceiving, she will likely have missed her period after her last sexual encounter, which is a major red flag and then, if she has any sense, she'll take a pregnancy test.

I know many people say 3 months is ok and I can see why they would say that. Even at three months the fetus is still very tiny, but it comes down to opinion. I don't feel comfortable with that because at three months it has a brain and a heartbeat. As far as I'm concerned, if something has a beating heart, it's a life.

 

[GhostAnime]

Yeah, like a beating heart makes a huge difference. It's ALREADY alive regardless of the heart. I do not understand why you people try to relate to lesser organisms like this. There are things alive without a heartbeat.

YOU =/= an embryo that is developing inside the womb of a mother.

 

[Vermehlo_Steele]

But by your logic GhostAnime, I've killed ants, so I deserve to be punished, I'm a mass murderer as TRILLIONS of bacteria, living organism by the way. How evil of me XD.

Look, Vaporeon4evr and GrassGuardian have it right.

 

[SoulSilverMstr411]

First women had rights, then gays. How long will it be before fetuses have rights?

 

[GhostAnime]

When they can actually protest.

But by your logic GhostAnime, I've killed ants, so I deserve to be punished, I'm a mass murderer as TRILLIONS of bacteria, living organism by the way. How evil of me XD.

Look, Vaporeon4evr and GrassGuardian have it right.

Um.. huh? I can't tell the message here like, at all.