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Your views on abortion

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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Generic Pokemon Trainer said:
How immoral can you guys be? A fetus is alive! It can feel, it kicks out in the womb when it feels uncomfortable, it moves its arms. I believe life starts at contraception. IT Astounds me why you think it is ok to kill babies in under ANY circumstances. Adoption is a wonderful thing, foster care is a brilliant thing. Give all children a chance!
You didn't provide an argument that wasn't already addressed.

Another problem I have is the wasted potential. Don't get me wrong, not every kid will be a genius, or live a "worthy" life. However, had Albert Einstein's parents had an abortion before he had been born, well let's just say we'd be further back on current technologies and, or general progression of almost anything you can think of.

What if millions of those Albert's waiting to be born have already been killed off and potentially it already has happened. Sure we have scientist and brilliant people today, but you never know when a figure will appear to jump our progression through a huge state.
Lol what if we were aborting Hitler? It can be just as equally bad as good.

In other ways I also find it used as a scapegoat or a way for the parent (s) to avoid responsibility. "Hey, I didn't take care of myself and ended up getting pregnated or ferting another woman let's just abort no skin off my shoulder" The male in most cases ends up with a "responsibility free card." The lady could end up safe without damages just to do it again without learning a lesson ("Those who forget the past are doomed ot repeat it"). Why should they get out of said problem in such a manner? When someone gets an STD or something else they end up with an effect which even with medication still remains in most cases. Abortion is just an easy way to cut corners on being a selfish person outright. People just throw fancy arguments ot cover it in my honest opinion.
1) No, she wouldn't do it again, because abortion isn't birth control.

2) These 'responsibility' arguments are by far the most annoying. Honestly, they are just utopia preaching that will never happen and never fix the overall solution. You can't expect people to not have sex until they are 100% ready for a child. The best you can do is assist them in doing something they're going to do anyway (.. which is both having sex AND getting an abortion legally or not).

And really, if a guy has a heart attack because he was irresponsible about his diet, should we just let him die?

Both are very valid, but really how would the lady feel any better in such a case? "Hey guys, I'm going to have a living being grounded down into chunks in my body and possibly damage myself or my mind" Quite frankly, I know someone who was victim of something similar and they did the same thing, the outcome was not good on their mentality.
She's better off financially definitely.
 
^^^ off topic slightly: But Hitler's mother actually considered a abortion but was talked out of it

Even though if Hitler was aborted, that is a innocent child killed despite what he would do in the future
 
Most of the time, women feel depressed after abortions even if they aren't fully harmed by the process in question. Let's say they are harmed which also happens quite a bit...

well obviously. women who choose to have an abortion, aren't heartless or not capable of having feelings. Nobody is excited over abortion, nor is the woman having the abortion actually truly wanting to have it ..but in most cases, it's better off for them.

In other ways I also find it used as a scapegoat or a way for the parent (s) to avoid responsibility. "Hey, I didn't take care of myself and ended up getting pregnated or ferting another woman let's just abort no skin off my shoulder" The male in most cases ends up with a "responsibility free card." The lady could end up safe without damages just to do it again without learning a lesson ("Those who forget the past are doomed ot repeat it"). Why should they get out of said problem in such a manner? When someone gets an STD or something else they end up with an effect which even with medication still remains in most cases. Abortion is just an easy way to cut corners on being a selfish person outright. People just throw fancy arguments ot cover it in my honest opinion.

SEX ISN'T JUST FOR REPRODUCTION.
SEX ISN'T JUST FOR REPRODUCTION.
i'm not talking for the people who constantly have unprotected sex of course. I'm talking about the people who use every bit of protection while having sex, to prevent them from getting pregnant/getting a woman pregnant. Sadly not all protection is 100% accurate as we all know.

I really don't see why people have to suffer with a child, when they were responsible enough to use protection, but sadly weren't lucky and it failed. They obviously aren't ready to take care of a child. And please don't give me that adoption crap. PLEASE DON'T. it doesn't work.

A major argument I commonly seen is: "What if the lady was drunk and then was raped, or another member of the family committed an incest act on them."

Both are very valid, but really how would the lady feel any better in such a case? "Hey guys, I'm going to have a living being grounded down into chunks in my body and possibly damage myself or my mind" Quite frankly, I know someone who was victim of something similar and they did the same thing, the outcome was not good on their mentality.

Well being raped, would leave scars and most likely will cause serious mental issues just alone. And the child being born, will always be a memory on that woman. They're going to be hurt from the beginning anyways from the rape.
People have a lot of nerve harassing women who have been raped for getting an abortion.

How immoral can you guys be? A fetus is alive! It can feel, it kicks out in the womb when it feels uncomfortable, it moves its arms. I believe life starts at contraception. IT Astounds me why you think it is ok to kill babies in under ANY circumstances. Adoption is a wonderful thing, foster care is a brilliant thing. Give all children a chance!

LOL @ the last thing you said.
Fetus =/= baby. Not just yet. No rights dear, no rights.

I have no idea why this argument goes on. It's obviously the woman's choice, and it's legal, so get over it.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Even though if Hitler was aborted, that is a innocent child killed despite what he would do in the future
And this is nothing but sentimentalist nonsense that can't be taken seriously in this debate.

Please list something other than trying to appeal to my emotions such as saying it's a 'child' or using the word 'innocent' loosely. Put more thoughts into this debate before you post.
 

Jojo-

I ♥ Psychic Types
Although I do believe that wiping out a child from our planet is wrong, I also believe that it should be the woman's choice. What if she wouldn't be able to support the baby in terms in food, shelter or even proper clothing? I'd rather think that the woman has the decency to not let a baby starve, become diseased ridden, or seriously unclothed.
 

natie

Mr. F
Generic Pokemon Trainer said:
Blah blah fetus is alive blah
Sure, the fetus is alive, but it isn't 'alive'.

Sounds weird, but you get the gist.
 

Mewtwo_soul

Servant of Mewtwo #1
You didn't provide an argument that wasn't already addressed.


Lol what if we were aborting Hitler? It can be just as equally bad as good.


That's not the same thing at all. Everything in the world would change if Hitler had been aborted, some good would have came from it however, his movements did change many things about the world. So the outcome is still negative with a more positive spin in it. Everything changes the potential of a life by aborting one child. Had I not survived and been aborted:

-My parent's marriage wouldn't have survived. (Grand parents)
-Never would have saved my brother from drowning.
-Deep depression would have fallen after my grand parents true son died.

Now let's pretend a guy walks into a store, aiming to kill the first person he sees. Where you stand a man who was aborted would have stood causing you for whatever reason to be safe from the shooting. Sure it is very cynical in concept but still remains the same idea. One potential death or life can change a majority of the world.


No, she wouldn't do it again, because abortion isn't birth control.

There have been records of specific women getting multiple abortions over their lifespan. Painful yes, but still done. Birth control is one thing, this is an entirely different meaning.

2) These 'responsibility' arguments are by far the most annoying. Honestly, they are just utopia preaching that will never happen and never fix the overall solution. You can't expect people to not have sex until they are 100% ready for a child. The best you can do is assist them in doing something they're going to do anyway (.. which is both having sex AND getting an abortion legally or not).

Having sex is not the problem, destroying a potential "savior" is. At the very least it shouldn't be supported in such a way.

And really, if a guy has a heart attack because he was irresponsible about his diet, should we just let him die?

That's not the same thing. Following a strict diet is one thing, heart attacks happen to many people who are responsible. However, if a man has diabetes and starts eating tons of sugar regardless of helping said man he will die. It won't matter if we help. So why exactly waste tons of money bailing the man out over and over again if the solution is the same either way. Logically it isn't helpful.


She's better off financially definitely.

I'll admit I laughed. Considering she can barely find the grips on herself to go out around society. She's practically a vegetable living off of welfare. Little at that. I probably make more money in less than a month from a less-than-minimum wage job. ---->For the first 90 days.


----



well obviously. women who choose to have an abortion, aren't heartless or not capable of having feelings. Nobody is excited over abortion, nor is the woman having the abortion actually truly wanting to have it ..but in most cases, it's better off for them.

What my point is, is why not just pay a man to punch them. Logically it saves money to improve the town with TP money and so on. Let alone
they could just give it to adoption as someone else stated. America at least is far from going "hungry." Although it can be argued the quality of adoption houses and the like. Before you argue "didn't I say don't mention adoption." I didn't say that they would be adopted. They can still grow up and move on to live their own life with aging. Alone, certainly, but alive and full of potential? Also very true.

i'm not talking for the people who constantly have unprotected sex of course. I'm talking about the people who use every bit of protection while having sex, to prevent them from getting pregnant/getting a woman pregnant. Sadly not all protection is 100% accurate as we all know.

I really don't see why people have to suffer with a child, when they were responsible enough to use protection, but sadly weren't lucky and it failed. They obviously aren't ready to take care of a child. And please don't give me that adoption crap. PLEASE DON'T. it doesn't work.

Last time I read up on percentages of accidental pregnancies with 100% protection was relatively low compared to those with unprotected sex. The only question I have is though, if abortion normally damages the lady in question in the first place how is having the child any worse, when it normally doesn't cause permanent scarring. (Although weight gain can happen and body distortion I will give you)

Well being raped, would leave scars and most likely will cause serious mental issues just alone. And the child being born, will always be a memory on that woman. They're going to be hurt from the beginning anyways from the rape.
People have a lot of nerve harassing women who have been raped for getting an abortion.

The problem I have with this is most women who still have the child normally end up with a better life than those who don't. Although this is a percentage / Statistical thing, many women who end up raped and have an abortion normally end up insane or otherwise. This is also true for those who have had the child but at a lower rate. However, being the lower rate makes what I'm trying to say clear. Overall it is more effective to have the child. Sometimes the parent will warm up to the child and end up disregarding that they are a memory of the rapist. Note: I don't harass women who have abortions. I just think in general abortions should be stopped. I'd rather see that exaggeration put into practice just for the better results of said exaggeration.

Note: Ignore the other post, I'll delete it.
 

ShinySandshrew

†God Follower†
I have no idea why this argument goes on. It's obviously the woman's choice, and it's legal, so get over it.
Do you realize that you just said legal=right? Slavery was legal once. Does that mean it was right when it was legal?

Although I do believe that wiping out a child from our planet is wrong, I also believe that it should be the woman's choice.
So people should have the freedom to choose to do wrong? Why?

Sure, the fetus is alive, but it isn't 'alive'.
Sounds weird, but you get the gist.
Really? That'd be like saying a fetus of a dolphin is alive but isn't "alive" so we can get rid of it if we want to. See my point?

Mewtwo_soul, I don't really think that punching someone in the stomach is a better alternative to abortion performed by a doctor. I don't think that the government should fund them, though. Also would you mind giving some sources for the statistics you mentioned?
 

Mewtwo_soul

Servant of Mewtwo #1
Just to make sure it's clear: I don't realy believe punching someone in the stomach until they have an "abortion" is better. The ten dollar thing is an exaggeration but there are probably people who would do it without getting money. On that note: Sorry for taking so long to respond I was wrestling with my dial up for about 10 minutes trying to delete just one of my triple posts on accident. I'll go find those sources again. (Although it seems stupid to mention that considering we're already within the debate) I haven't had to use those sources since my report in HighSchool as I haven't been on forums with topics on this subject for awhile.

One question though: Will information from 2006 be qualified as "trusty" in regards to the general statistics or should it be more recent? My highschool teacher claimed that in arguments on such things as abortion the most recent sites being cited are the most credible. If no, nevermind then. If yes, I'll get on it. (No use looking them up just to have that thrown in my face especially with dial up.) ---> Before you go "4 years=old and outdated?" My teacher claimed it should be within 2 years of claim.


EDIT: I found some sites with interesting information pertaining to abortion and claims made: Seems fairly recent as far as I can tell:

http://www.deveber.org/text/whealth.html The whole page is worth a read.
http://www.abortiontv.com/Methods/GeorgeTiller.htm Worth a read.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1906- Simple solution.
http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V7/n4/illegalabortions.htm Counters most pro abortion arguments .
http://www.afterabortion.org/stetson.html Even more.

These aren't the sites however, but just something I thought would be interesting and agree somewhat on what I said earlier.
 
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Super Nerd 7997

Crazy Plant Guy
So people should have the freedom to choose to do wrong? Why?

Just saying, it isn't the point of government to legislate morality, only to protect the rights of the people. So long as the choice does not infringe on the rights of others, I see no reason why the government should try to prevent it; doing so could lead to a nanny state of opressive moral busybodies running everyone's lives, which would be bad.

In the case of abortion, though, the argument against it is that it infringes upon the rights of the child, so the above is mostly irrelevant.
 
Generic Pokemon Trainer- Sure adopting a child is wonderful, i hope to do that in the future. But i foster child has to live with the fact that his/hers parents didn't want him/her. Foster kids usually become drug addicted atheists (nothing against atheists, i am one) who sometimes worship the devil, because they feel that god hasn't been there for them, and all lot of them attempt suicide for all sorts of reasons, if you are a christian then you believe that suicide does not lead to salvation, perhaps a parent needs an abortion because they know they can't take care of a baby, and instead of f****** a kids the parents decide that an abortion is the best option. If you would rather give a child a chance to commit suicide then you are the sick one.

Super Nerd- in a lot of states a fetus does not have rights, New York i believe is an example
 
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Megaton666

Swampert Trainer
while I have nothing against suicide (if someone wants to die, it's their right), I agree that not aborting when neccesary can make a child violant and mean as he's parents aren't ready and evidently don't want him.
 
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GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Mewtwo Soul said:
That's not the same thing at all. Everything in the world would change if Hitler had been aborted, some good would have came from it however, his movements did change many things about the world. So the outcome is still negative with a more positive spin in it. Everything changes the potential of a life by aborting one child. Had I not survived and been aborted:

-My parent's marriage wouldn't have survived. (Grand parents)
-Never would have saved my brother from drowning.
-Deep depression would have fallen after my grand parents true son died.

Now let's pretend a guy walks into a store, aiming to kill the first person he sees. Where you stand a man who was aborted would have stood causing you for whatever reason to be safe from the shooting. Sure it is very cynical in concept but still remains the same idea. One potential death or life can change a majority of the world.
So how does this support your point over mine? You basically said what if we have an Albert Einstein. I give you a BAD person and you say good things can STILL come out of it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Besides, statistically speaking, children WHO COULD HAVE BEEN ABORTED, usually turn out bad because the mother was too poor and the father didn't care.

There have been records of specific women getting multiple abortions over their lifespan. Painful yes, but still done. Birth control is one thing, this is an entirely different meaning.
Regardless it isn't common and it isn't an argument.

That's not the same thing. Following a strict diet is one thing, heart attacks happen to many people who are responsible. However, if a man has diabetes and starts eating tons of sugar regardless of helping said man he will die. It won't matter if we help. So why exactly waste tons of money bailing the man out over and over again if the solution is the same either way. Logically it isn't helpful.
But we still help people like this anyway. And yes, it is the same thing. You didn't bother explaining why it wasn't. If you want to preach responsibility, preach it in every facet.

Besides, why would you want people, who could have been irresponsible in sex, be responsible for taking care of a kid? That probably explains why most potential aborted babies rarely ever turn out right.

I'll admit I laughed. Considering she can barely find the grips on herself to go out around society. She's practically a vegetable living off of welfare. Little at that. I probably make more money in less than a month from a less-than-minimum wage job. ---->For the first 90 days.
You laugh? Laugh your *** off to some research. Dirt poor women aren't the only ones that abort.

Women who are coming up also abort, and guess what? It's one of the main reasons women have rose in independence, and higher salaries, because they don't have to take pregnant leaves, or ever put their life on hold. That is a significant difference.

Really? That'd be like saying a fetus of a dolphin is alive but isn't "alive" so we can get rid of it if we want to. See my point?
You did not understand what he meant by alive.. at all.

Mewtwo Soul if you want to make more arguments, don't just throw links out there. Put these arguments on the table, but we aren't even finished with our current one. I could also find sites and have a website battle but that wouldn't really be a debate.
 

Corroded Arceus

Shiny Hunter
I am pro-choice, to a degree.

The child should not be past a certain stage in development. That's not for me to decide as I don't understand birth, but I don't see a reason why a woman whose baby is "alive" in the humanoid sense of the word should abort it. There's a certain point where a few cells become a life.

Also, I think it should be circumstantial. I had the misfortune to know someone who slept around like an idiot. One day she showed up at school bragging about how she had an abortion, and it disgusted me. Rape, certain circumstances of teen pregnancy (unlike the girl I mention, who should have endured the pain of pregnancy for her stupid behavior) and a few other circumstances are acceptable as a reason. Not "oh hai we forgot/were too lazy for protection so get rid of this baby plz."

But banning abortion alltogether won't work, because people will resort to more *ahem* dangerous methods of getting it done...
 
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pokemonloverXD

Ash's fangirl
To me abortion=evil, no matter what kind of a reason they have, killing a young baby, a life and mostly your own child which is your own blood is wrong! I'm against it big time!
 
To me abortion=evil, no matter what kind of a reason they have, killing a young baby, a life and mostly your own child which is your own blood is wrong! I'm against it big time!

yet you have no reason to form that opinion whatsoever. are you in any way directly affected by another woman's abortion of her baby?
 
lol my internet is dead


Well, let me start off by saying that I misunderstood your statement about fetuses and rocks. But the matter of life is important to innocence. A rock is not alive and thus cannot commit acts.
Now hold on a second:

Existence is an act, as "to exist" is a verb. Things that are not alive are capable of existng. What verbs, in your opinion, get to be called acts?

While it's true that you have to be alive to have the capacity for innocence or guilt, that's arguably a one-way relationship: while all agents capable of guilt are living, not all living agents are capable of guilt.

This obviously leads into a slew of problems: Capacity for guilt/innocence seems to be largely related to the agent's biological complexity. How do you measure the guilt capacity of a unicellular organism? Is a hydra capable of guilt and innocence? What about a bumblebee? You also brought up innocent cats and animal cruelty -- interesting, because animal cruelty does not apply to all animals (you don't get charged with animal cruelty for squashing a pill bug). The question here is, where is the line drawn?

TheFightingPikachu said:
Actually, let's replace that with: "A fetus is innocent in the same sense that a baby dolphin is innocent," or "a fetus is innocent in the same sense a baby whale is innocent." See the difference? I think we all do.
The last two sentences of my above reply to ShinySandshrew also apply to you. See the problem? I sure hope so.

But the matter of innocence is very important. Tim the Turtle, you said abortions are done for a reason. How many of those are done for a helpful reason and how many are done just because the woman doesn't want the child? Until you can find me reliable data on that (and I don't think you should just take Planned Parenthood's word on it) all reply boils down to is a rationalization.

But's let's assume that 75% of abortions are done for a good cause like saving the mother's life. How can the other 25% percent be justified? If the other 25% of abortions are done for no reason at all how can that be anything less than cruelty? And why should we allow cruelty in the name of choice?
In my opinion, they're justified because the mother wants an abortion. "I don't want to" is a good enough reason to deny anyone else access to your bodily resources. Abortion should be no different.

But since you asked, the stats are on page 113 of this report.

The child should not be past a certain stage in development. That's not for me to decide as I don't understand birth, but I don't see a reason why a woman whose baby is "alive" in the humanoid sense of the word should abort it. There's a certain point where a few cells become a life.
I agree with this, actually. I believe women should have the freedom to end a late-term pregnancy without killing the fetus in situations where it is possible and safe to do so (which is not considered abortion), but abortion must be allowed in all other cases.

Also, I think it should be circumstantial. I had the misfortune to know someone who slept around like an idiot. One day she showed up at school bragging about how she had an abortion, and it disgusted me. Rape, certain circumstances of teen pregnancy (unlike the girl I mention, who should have endured the pain of pregnancy for her stupid behavior) and a few other circumstances are acceptable as a reason. Not "oh hai we forgot/were too lazy for protection so get rid of this baby plz."
This I don't agree with. Doing (arguably) stupid things with your body does not require you to surrender your domain over it. Otherwise the cops should take your liver instead of your money when you get caught drinking excessively while driving.
 
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Do you realize that you just said legal=right? Slavery was legal once. Does that mean it was right when it was legal?

):< don't make me sound like that now!
stop putting words into my mouth.

We're talking these days. Leave that crap out.
I think some illegal things are right too, js.

SOME legal stuff is right. Some isn't.
Abortion IS.

So people should have the freedom to choose to do wrong? Why?

It isn't wrong. teehee.

Really? That'd be like saying a fetus of a dolphin is alive but isn't "alive" so we can get rid of it if we want to. See my point?

TBH I don't give a crap if the thing is alive or not alive. All I'm saying is, the woman chooses what she does with it, while it's still inside HER own body.

To me abortion=evil, no matter what kind of a reason they have, killing a young baby, a life and mostly your own child which is your own blood is wrong! I'm against it big time!

hahahaha.
young baby? it's still a fetus, remember that?
and well obviously it's your future child. Which gives you a right to choose if you want it or not. Of course once it's outside the mother, killing it would be wrong, since it's know a fully born infant. But while it's inside the mother, attached to her, apart of her, she makes the calls.
 
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Metagross Guy

ᴸ м f ᴬ σ.
Personally i think that if the baby is in the woman,the woman has her right to decide if she loses the baby or keeps it. If she wants to lose the baby it is only right to rid the baby while it is in her. If its born, she has no right to rid (Im just saying rid because Kill is a pretty harsh word) it. And all this is pretty much what Kit Kat is trying to say..i think. :l
 
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