Your views on abortion

[denizenofevil]

What part is not effective? the part where u pull out so u dont ejaculate in her thus not getting her pregant. or the part where a seed magically appers out of nowhere to put a baby her.

...oh my goodness. I was hoping you were joking. Don't they still have health classes any more? There's still preejaculate before the guy finishes. In addition to it being stupid and ineffective, it doesn't protect you from STDs.

okay let's just imagine for a second that you're pregant/got someone pregnant and it wasn't planned. what if you used a condom but it happened anyway? would you SERIOUSLY want to keep the baby? Adoption isn't as easy as it used to be. so just imagine YOURSELF in the same situation as those pregnant teens or rape victims or even those people that didn't plan. You don't wanna go through the stress of pregnancy for 9 MONTHS for nothing. If i got pregnant by accident i would not want to go through with the pregnancy. i wouldn't want my body changing so fast. so imagine that YOU'RE a pregnant teen mother. You'd think abortion is a saving grace if that ever happened

Not wanting to go through the stress of pregnancy and worrying about getting fat, stretchmarks, and all the other bodily changes during pregnancy is not a good reason to destroy another being. I personally wouldn't give my child up for adoption. I'd take responsibility and raise it myself.

 

[Dragoon952]

okay let's just imagine for a second that you're pregant/got someone pregnant and it wasn't planned. what if you used a condom but it happened anyway? would you SERIOUSLY want to keep the baby? Adoption isn't as easy as it used to be. so just imagine YOURSELF in the same situation as those pregnant teens or rape victims or even those people that didn't plan. You don't wanna go through the stress of pregnancy for 9 MONTHS for nothing. If i got pregnant by accident i would not want to go through with the pregnancy. i wouldn't want my body changing so fast. so imagine that YOU'RE a pregnant teen mother. You'd think abortion is a saving grace if that ever happened

The argument should NEVER be about convenience. The argument should always be centered on when a human being comes into existence. Because, at that point, a fetus/baby has the same rights as you and me regardless of whether it is convenient for someone else.

EDIT:

Which, might I add, as emotional of an issue as it is, rape shouldn't even come into the argument. Regardless of how it got there, if it is a human being with human rights, then it is entitled to the same rights as you and I. Using rape as an example is always an emotional ploy to move the argument in the emotional direction.

I don't mean that in a cold way, I just mean that as it isn't an essential part of the argument. People should really focus on trying to determine when a human being comes into existence in order to, quite frankly, save as many lives as possible and determine when certain procedures would be acceptable. I think both pro-life and pro-choice proponents should at least agree that that's the argument to have.

 

[IMPERIAL DRAGON]

denizenofevil

It is incredibly barbaric to inject chemicals into a fetus or rip it pieces, I totally agree, and it’s not as though I condone the method or process, but I support the outcome since I believe abortion is one of those situations where the ends justify the means. Nevertheless, at the stage of pregnancy in which the fetus is essentially dissolved by chemicals, exactly how developed is it that it is done away with so easily, it barely registers as a life at that point. Abortion techniques are hardly ideal, but it is a necessary evil if going through with the pregnancy is not appropriate for whatever reason, it’s being cruel to be kind.

Let’s put this into context, shall we? Contraception such as condoms, implants, medication etc are the first line of defence, plan A, if you will. Plan B consists of the morning after pill, in case of contraception failure or lack of contraception, and if all else fails, abortion is plan C, the backline of defence, the last resort scenario. Abortion is pretty much foolproof, and incredibly effective, fair enough it may fail sometimes and the fetus is ‘born’ for lack of a better term, but be careful with your wording as calling it alive is slightly hasty, since abortions are generally performed at a point when the fetus cannot physically live outside of its mother. Born alive is a poor choice of words considering it would quickly die, and I assume even you’d struggle to describe what visible signs of life an aborted fetus can show. That whole argument is bare faced liberal propaganda anyway, designed to force an emotional response when people think a fetus is just as human or alive despite being within the range of legal abortion.

And if you intend to debate with me please don’t come out with responses so easily foiled, when I blatantly never denied sex can lead to pregnancy, that’s just you putting a spin on my words. My point is and always has been that even when contraception fails, there are methods to avoid pregnancy. The risk is always there, but contraception and abortion means we don’t have to deal with any unwanted consequences; it gives us the gift of choice.

Your attempt at comparing situations is slightly too weak for my liking. The defining factor you’re either ignoring or just not able to comprehend is the outcome. By skydiving you take this risk, and the consequence is your death if it goes wrong, but there is no coming back from dying, no way around it, your death would be final. But with pregnancy, there are options to prevent it going further if you choose. The fact it’s not final makes an unfair comparison with risking death, literally because if someone gets pregnant, there are options, if you die, that’s the end of the game.

 

[Mawile412]

you guys aren't teenage girls so you wouldn't understand.

a fetus doesn't have the same rights as me! it's not even ALIVE yet.

 

[Jb]

...oh my goodness. I was hoping you were joking. Don't they still have health classes any more? There's still preejaculate before the guy finishes. In addition to it being stupid and ineffective, it doesn't protect you from STDs.

You should know when your about to bust a nut.


Also i ment pulling out while wearing a condom. Its more effective than using one alone.

 

[Lucos]

How can you not find the injecting of chemicals that literally burns apart the fetus barbaric? In late term abortions, did you know that they cut apart the baby's body?

That's not how abortion goes.

If the fetus is younger than 5 months, the woman can take an abortion pill. That pill with force birth and that way you'll lose the microscopic fetus as if you where in your monthly period.

If the fetus is still younger than I believe 12 weeks, they just suck it out of the womb with a tiny tube. Like I showed you earlier, the fetus is only half an inch to maximum a few inches high, it's so small they can just suck it out as if it where just a little bullet.

If the fetus is bigger, they'll take it out with a scrapper that "scraps" the womb clean. By no means do they burn the fetus with chemicals (that would damage the womb too, so that would be just stupid) nor do they cut it to pieces. And even if they would, what does it matter? The fetus doesn't feel anything, nor does it know anything, nor does it even realize it's alive. Removing a fetus would be like cutting down a tree. A tree is as much alive as a fetus. It breaths, it feeds itself with nutrients from the ground, but it does not feel anything, nor does it know anything, nor does it realize it's a live. Are you going to cry for every tree they cut down in the forest? Do you think that's inhumane? (let's not talk about cutting down whole rain forests, just trees from regular forests)

They aren't 100% effective but neither are abortions! Did you know that abortions can fail and the fetus/baby is born alive?.

That's absolutely ridiculous. :S Where did you get that silly idea?
A fetus can not be born alive if it's previous the 24 weeks mark and like I said, most countries prefer not to abort after the 12 weeks mark, and after the 20 weeks mark is illegal, unless the woman's health is put in danger because of the pregnancy. So there is NO WAY that they take something that has a change to live on it's own (at that moment) away from the womb. You're just dreaming up scary stories that are not real.

 

[darkjigglypuff]

...oh my goodness. I was hoping you were joking. Don't they still have health classes any more? There's still preejaculate before the guy finishes. In addition to it being stupid and ineffective, it doesn't protect you from STDs.



Not wanting to go through the stress of pregnancy and worrying about getting fat, stretchmarks, and all the other bodily changes during pregnancy is not a good reason to destroy another being. I personally wouldn't give my child up for adoption. I'd take responsibility and raise it myself.

LOL NO.


There is more to pregnancy than getting fatter. Numerous things like hormonal imbalances, morning sickness, and even outside things like pressure from family can place a pregnant teenager under immense stress.

 

[Mawile412]

LOL NO.


There is more to pregnancy than getting fatter. Numerous things like hormonal imbalances, morning sickness, and even outside things like pressure from family can place a pregnant teenager under immense stress.

this is what i meant. Also the stress of school work

 

[Dragoon952]

you guys aren't teenage girls so you wouldn't understand.

a fetus doesn't have the same rights as me! it's not even ALIVE yet.

The point SHOULD be determining when it is alive and when it does have the same rights as you.

I don't think we can argue that human rights aren't the same for all humans. The difference between pro-choice and pro-life is when they think that begins. Pro-life thinks it's conception, pro-chocie thinks it's some time after that (which makes abortion ok before that point).

I don't think anyone thinks abortion as a medical procedure is super cool and everyone should get one. The moral question still, and always will, revolve around when life begins.

 

[denizenofevil]

you guys aren't teenage girls so you wouldn't understand.

a fetus doesn't have the same rights as me! it's not even ALIVE yet.

I am/was a teenage girl. I'm 19. That's a rather cavalier attitude to have. You should not take abortion so lightly.

It is incredibly barbaric to inject chemicals into a fetus or rip it pieces, I totally agree, and it’s not as though I condone the method or process, but I support the outcome since I believe abortion is one of those situations where the ends justify the means. Nevertheless, at the stage of pregnancy in which the fetus is essentially dissolved by chemicals, exactly how developed is it that it is done away with so easily, it barely registers as a life at that point. Abortion techniques are hardly ideal, but it is a necessary evil if going through with the pregnancy is not appropriate for whatever reason, it’s being cruel to be kind.

Let’s put this into context, shall we? Contraception such as condoms, implants, medication etc are the first line of defence, plan A, if you will. Plan B consists of the morning after pill, in case of contraception failure or lack of contraception, and if all else fails, abortion is plan C, the backline of defence, the last resort scenario. Abortion is pretty much foolproof, and incredibly effective, fair enough it may fail sometimes and the fetus is ‘born’ for lack of a better term, but be careful with your wording as calling it alive is slightly hasty, since abortions are generally performed at a point when the fetus cannot physically live outside of its mother. Born alive is a poor choice of words considering it would quickly die, and I assume even you’d struggle to describe what visible signs of life an aborted fetus can show. That whole argument is bare faced liberal propaganda anyway, designed to force an emotional response when people think a fetus is just as human or alive despite being within the range of legal abortion.

And if you intend to debate with me please don’t come out with responses so easily foiled, when I blatantly never denied sex can lead to pregnancy, that’s just you putting a spin on my words. My point is and always has been that even when contraception fails, there are methods to avoid pregnancy. The risk is always there, but contraception and abortion means we don’t have to deal with any unwanted consequences; it gives us the gift of choice.

Your attempt at comparing situations is slightly too weak for my liking. The defining factor you’re either ignoring or just not able to comprehend is the outcome. By skydiving you take this risk, and the consequence is your death if it goes wrong, but there is no coming back from dying, no way around it, your death would be final. But with pregnancy, there are options to prevent it going further if you choose. The fact it’s not final makes an unfair comparison with risking death, literally because if someone gets pregnant, there are options, if you die, that’s the end of the game.

Fair enough but if you intend to debate with me, don't resort to personal insults because my view is different from yours. The point I was trying to make with the skydiving thing is that we can make choices but we have to accept the consequences of our actions. You have the gift of choice and accountability. You can choose to do whatever you want but you may not choose your consequences. Sometimes, you can find a way out but I don't believe that destroying something/someone else is one of those ways. I'm glad that we at least agree that the methods of abortion are barbaric.

 

[Empoleon Bonaparte]

There are plenty of people out there who are responsible and willing to adopt a baby.

Please, inform me why there are still adoption centres? Not to mention the millions of especially Chinese children, abandoned by their parents.

 

[The Dark Titan]

How the heck can you determine whether or not it's a human being? Does it have the genetics of a human being? Is it a product of sex being two human beings? If so, it is a child! Quite honestly, your view that the fetus isn't a human being and isn't a child is a sick and twisted view.

As for the serial killing thing, I wasn't saying abortion was like genocide. I was saying that his view that abortion is okay because it helps the environment is a rather screwed up view.

Exactly. The term actually refers to the offspring of two conscious human beings. Any human below the age of 18 can be seen as a child.

Actually, it is called Infanticide, the action of killing infants in a big number, which is what abortion allows.

Now, as for helping the enviroment, what? If the children are well educated the enviroment has nothing to fear. I am with you, in the terms of that view being sick and twisted. This person is saying that every human being that is born is, in fact, hurting the enviroment.

How do you know it's a baby?

It's usually because they just can't possibly take care of one due to financial reasons. No, I don't mean "they can provide diapers, food, and water." I literally mean they can't take care of it.

A baby is any being that is the offspring of parents of the same species. In the moment the child is concibed(SP?) it is a being, and therefore a baby.

Your choices?

What about rape?
What about a broken condom?
What about becoming ill, therefor the birth control pill doesn't work correctly, therefor you become pregnant although not intended?

Yes, given rape, you should be able to abort, but this as an extreme case. Abortion may hurt the woman, or mother, psicologicaly speaking, plus the effects of the rape she already suffered, she would end up worse, of course this is not all of the time. Still, if the mother has the baby, she can either five it in an orphanage, so that sterile couples can adopt, or keep it. She would probably end up loving the child, anyways.

A broken condom is not abyone's fault. True. but if the couple is not ready to any accidents that may occur, they should not be having sex. In any way, they can give the child to adoption or a foster home.

Again, if the couple is not ready they should not be having sex. Also, you're talking about the probability that the condom broke, and the pill did not work, because no couple should be having sex without a condom knowing the consecuences.

 

[denizenofevil]

That's absolutely ridiculous. :S Where did you get that silly idea?
A fetus can not be born alive if it's previous the 24 weeks mark and like I said, most countries prefer not to abort after the 12 weeks mark, and after the 20 weeks mark is illegal, unless the woman's health is put in danger because of the pregnancy. So there is NO WAY that they take something that has a change to live on it's own (at that moment) away from the womb. You're just dreaming up scary stories that are not real.

Nope. I'm not sick enough to make something that horrible up. Go read up on it.

this is what i meant. Also the stress of school work

If you aren't ready to handle all that stress, don't have sex. We're not animals that can't control our urges. You bringing up the stress of school work is laughable.

Please, inform me why there are still adoption centres? Not to mention the millions of especially Chinese children, abandoned by their parents.

The Chinese thing is a slightly different situation. I'm Chinese myself so I know the culture. Chinese people value boys more than girls. Since the law in China limits the number of kids you can have, people dump off their baby girls so they can try for a boy. Adoption centers are a good thing. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make by bringing it up. There are irresponsible people out there and there are also responsible people. That's why adoption centers are there.

 

[Jb]

Please, inform me why there are still adoption centres? Not to mention the millions of especially Chinese children, abandoned by their parents.

Cause they got like 1.6/6 of the world population.

 

[DaleL487]

We don't have it in Ireland so they don't need it anywhere else.

 

[Empoleon Bonaparte]

The Chinese thing is a slightly different situation. I'm Chinese myself so I know the culture. Chinese people value boys more than girls. Since the law in China limits the number of kids you can have, people dump off their baby girls so they can try for a boy. Adoption centers are a good thing. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make by bringing it up. There are irresponsible people out there and there are also responsible people. That's why adoption centers are there.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but you clearly said that there always will be people that are willing to adopt a child.
You have to admit that most people want to extend their bloodline by making children of their own; it's part of the human nature.
Therefore, adoption is usually a 'last measure', to 'fill up' the empty space that two people may feel when they aren't capable to reproduce.

 

[Lucos]

Nope. I'm not sick enough to make something that horrible up. Go read up on it.

I can't read it up and judge your sources if you don't supply them to me. But I can assure you, wherever you've read it, it's bullsh!t and I've already explained why. But if I was not clear or detailed enough I can explain it again and/or even provide some sources.

 

[denizenofevil]

I can't read it up and judge your sources if you don't supply them to me. But I can assure you, wherever you've read it, it's bullsh!t and I've already explained why. But if I was not clear or detailed enough I can explain it again and/or even provide some sources.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article597136.ece

"In practice, according to Stuart Campbell, former professor of obstetrics and gynaecology at St George’s hospital, London, a number do survive.

“They can be born breathing and crying at 19 weeks’ gestation,” he said. “I am not anti-abortion, but as far as I am concerned this is sub-standard medicine.”


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/643465/failed_abortions_twins.html?cat=25



If you want more, I can give you more links.

 

[Mawile412]

If you aren't ready to handle all that stress, don't have sex. We're not animals that can't control our urges. You bringing up the stress of school work is laughable.

hey maybe they got talked into it or thought that everyone is doing it so why not? who knows why they had sex but they didnt plan for the baby. not everyone plans about pregnancy before they have sex.

how is it laughable? i'm stressed with school right now and i'm not pregnant. pregnant teens also have to worry abour rumors and everyone talking about them.

i've had a few friends that got pregnant and got an abortion. there's is no way they could handle the pregnancy or caring for the child. so don't act like i don't know a single thing about abortion or the teen girls that get them.

 

[Lucos]

Okay people, I have the feeling some of you think abortion is like this, but it's totally NOT like that.

Before you click it, realize it's fiction, it's a clip from one of my favorite bands, Dir en Grey, who are anti-abortion btw. It's by no means how a real abortion is like. It's just an artistic and inspiring clip I came to think of when we where debating here. This is how pro-life and anti-abortion people tell you abortion is like, but it's not true.