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Z-Moves vs. Mega Evolutions

Pathfinder

No Angel
With Decidueye, Inciniroar & Primarina's Z-Moves having been revealed today I figured it was past time we had a thread here to discuss Z-Moves..so yeah discuss anything and everything related to Z-Moves, Mega Evolution, or Z-Moves vs. Mega Evolution here.
 

Italianbaptist

Informed Casual
Yeeeeeeeee :D

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing how the Z-moves are used in the 2017 competitive format since Megas are out for that specifically.
What we have to wait for (in 4 days + the time it takes to upgrade the Z-Ring) is whether Z-moves and Mega Evolution can be used in tandem or if you have to pick one or the other. If the latter, I'm probably gonna stick with Megas more. I like the type change yet of Mega Charizard X and I'm not sure about Turtonator yet, and all the megas just seem to have more staying power, and thus more impact, than a one-use move.

It is nice though that every Pokemon can use a Z-move to get their time in the sun.
 

Theo-92

Well-Known Member
Looking forward to 7th Gen as a whole. Especially now that mega evolving applies a Pokemon's new speed stat on the same turn it mega evolves.

Don't really know what to make of Z-Moves. I don't like the idea but that will probably change once I start playing.
 

nel3

Crimson Dragon
it took me a while to get used to the megas, mostly Lucario/aggron and Gardevoir (to name 2 of 4). im not really crazy about the OU/uber mega ie kanga/gengar but i tolerate them when faced vs them... i don like the idea of the Z moves in gen 7 nor the ultra beasts, its all sounds more like very gimmick hype deal. though i do like the fact that no new megas are in gen7, its one less thing to worry about if i need to battle a competitive player. ive seen the rules for vgc 17 and i think it will be much like vgc 16 with the crazy ubers to make rather boring variety of top pkmn. i will most definitely get gen7 even if it has no hype in my case and i'll likely stick to the megas rather than use any Z move. Z moves seem atm too much like an easy win button even if its a 1 time per battle basis. the new pkmn roster has yet to impress me but i do see some interesting pkmn designs and a few horrible ones in between those good ones.
 
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Italianbaptist

Informed Casual
Gamexplain showcased Z moves in their review of Sun and Moon so I guess it's okay to talk about them more now (wasn't sure earlier because of the leaks...)

I really don't know what to expect with Z moves basically being a power up of moves you already have (ex: Tackle becomes Breakneck Blitz/Stat boosts get bigger). Gamexplain did a good job of explaining that because it works this way however it's not necessarily an "insta win button" like we're fearing.

Also, depending on the Z move of choice, you could mega evolve and then your opponent could use a powerful Z move to take them out immediately so maybe it all balances out? I'm still probably gonna go with mega evolution if I have to choose between the two.

Lastly, including the Primal Reversions we have a perfect 50 mega pokemon. That's a nice round number - so is 48 :)
 

Rio!

Composer
I'm not into Z-Moves much, personally. I mean, the animation it involves with interaction between trainer and Pokemon is entertaining if anything the Starters' moves look amazing and Incineroar's has me flailing madly but outside that, I'm not exactly sold on the idea. Especially when Z-Moves come at the tail-end of Mega Evolutions, the latter is just more consistent.
I'm a little more excited in the fact that speed factors into Mega-evolving (the likes of Beedrill being able to squeeze in a U-Turn bar priority moves is a little frightening w/out proper investments/resistance) plus Mega Kangaskhan being toned down in the Parental Bond department is nice.
 

Requiem Aeternam

Dance like an eggplant!
I don't see myself using Z-Moves much at all. I've been planning a team for the Battle Tree (or whatever the facility is) and I'm not using any Z-Moves. The one-per-battle mechanic doesn't really appeal to me or make me think it's worthwhile especially when my Pokemon is forced to hold an item for them when they could be holding an item they can use the entire battle. Also there's nothing stopping your opponent from switching into something that can resist your Z-Move which will result in it being wasted. Megas on the other hand are something I've been consistently using since XY and will continue to do so in SM.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
Isn't it ironic that Porygon-Z is one of the best Z-Move users out there?

porygon-z.gif

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Timid - Download
252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 Defence
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Conversion

Conversion-Z gives you +1 to all of your stats, turning him into quite the deadly late-game sweeper. It also has the side effect of randomly changing into the type of one of your moves, so keep that in mind in choosing which moves to run. I'm running BoltBeam + Shadow Ball at the moment but there might be better options I haven't tried yet.​
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
For Singles, I doubt Z-Moves will have as big of an impact on the meta as Megas did nor will they be as common since the cost-to-benefit ratio isn't nearly as favorable, but they are definitely still viable. People have already found success with stuff like Conversion-Z on Poryon-Z (mentioned above) or giving Waterium-Z to Rain Dance Manaphy, and there are probably a good number of other status Z-Move abusers out there waiting to be tested.
 

Erron Black

The Outlaw
Isn't it ironic that Porygon-Z is one of the best Z-Move users out there?

porygon-z.gif

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Timid - Download
252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 Defence
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow Ball
-Conversion

Conversion-Z gives you +1 to all of your stats, turning him into quite the deadly late-game sweeper. It also has the side effect of randomly changing into the type of one of your moves, so keep that in mind in choosing which moves to run. I'm running BoltBeam + Shadow Ball at the moment but there might be better options I haven't tried yet.​

Adaptability is better than Download, that way you can gain BIG STAB from the first move in your moveset. Most use Shadow Ball to trick fighting types into giving P-Z a free Z-Conversion.
 

Italianbaptist

Informed Casual
I just beat the game so I'm getting ready to get back to Mega Evolution soon, but here's what I like about the Z-moves.

The Mega concept was a neat one but very limited considering less than 1% of all Pokemon get to use it. I'm seeing some very creative strategies built around the Z-Crystals so far that I'm appreciating because of the added diversity/options.

It's been mentioned on this and other websites that a lot of people are more excited about the stat boosting Z-moves as opposed to the "Mega Attacks", though in-game the giant cutscene moves have definitely helped me. I'm liking the Porygon-Z/Z-Conversion route :) Smogon's already had at least one person talking about Z-Splash (+3 attack stat boosts) and I've kept it on Mimikyu to potentially power up Shadow Claw and Play Rough, but I haven't actually used it to see how much of a threat Mimikyu could be. This is what I currently have in my game and I want to test it out:

Mimikyu @ Normalium-Z
Splash
Leech Life
Shadow Claw
Play Rough

idk about the EVs and what not but I know it's got a higher Physical attack stat vs. Special.

I do have to say though that even after Disguise mine seems to take hits pretty well. Also Verlisify posted a video about Extreme Evoboost and Eevee potentially hitting like a truck afterward, so we'll have to see if the possibility of having a competitive Eevee is a thing.
 

BlazingRagnarok

Well-Known Member
I
I do have to say though that even after Disguise mine seems to take hits pretty well. Also Verlisify posted a video about Extreme Evoboost and Eevee potentially hitting like a truck afterward, so we'll have to see if the possibility of having a competitive Eevee is a thing.
Why would you sweep with Eevee? Its base stats are terrible even after everything gets +2. I could see it late in a baton pass chain, but base 55 speed is way too low to pass without getting some boosts first. It can't even fall back on focus sash to give it a free turn, it can only switch in on ghosts, and even low tier sweepers can rub it out before it gets a chance to use its Z move.

My problem with Z splash and other Z status set up movesets is that they're one-and-done boosts. Mimikyu becomes a 3 move pokemon after its Z move, and hazing/phasing will leave you with nothing to show for it. It's a fine option on pokemon with no better boosting options, but something like Gyarados wouldn't be caught dead using Z splash over dragon dance. By the way, you should really consider putting shadow sneak on that Mimikyu. Shadow claw is a pretty "meh" move when you already have play rough as your primary STAB, and the game still has tons of stuff that outruns base 96 speed.
 

Italianbaptist

Informed Casual
Why would you sweep with Eevee? Its base stats are terrible even after everything gets +2. I could see it late in a baton pass chain, but base 55 speed is way too low to pass without getting some boosts first. It can't even fall back on focus sash to give it a free turn, it can only switch in on ghosts, and even low tier sweepers can rub it out before it gets a chance to use its Z move.

My problem with Z splash and other Z status set up movesets is that they're one-and-done boosts. Mimikyu becomes a 3 move pokemon after its Z move, and hazing/phasing will leave you with nothing to show for it. It's a fine option on pokemon with no better boosting options, but something like Gyarados wouldn't be caught dead using Z splash over dragon dance. By the way, you should really consider putting shadow sneak on that Mimikyu. Shadow claw is a pretty "meh" move when you already have play rough as your primary STAB, and the game still has tons of stuff that outruns base 96 speed.

Yeah I wouldn't necessarily sweep with Eevee - too risky - even Verlisify called him a glass cannon and said you had to be in a good position to activate the Evoboost. And I'd probably use it on something else - or mega evolve if I had to choose between the two. But the option's there and it's fun to speculate.

I'm definitely down with switching to Shadow Sneak for the reasons you mentioned - I was nervous about the state of priority moves this gen because of the trailers. And also I'm not sure if I'd necessarily want my one Z-move to be Z-Splash either - that's my main problem with it.

Speaking of which, have we ever found out if you can mega evolve and use a z-move in the same battle or if it's just one or the other?
 

Ashrynn

Well-Known Member
Z-Conversion Porygon is one of the best sets using a Z-Move. +1 to all stats, Adaptability and Shadow Ball is nothing to laugh at. Especially given it's great coverage with BoltBeam. I also played the Electric variant of Z-Porygon and was just decimated against a Koko team I did not prepare for at all.

Outside of Porygon I feel the rest are more gimmicky. Z-Splash could work on a couple of pokemon, but you'd have to use it on your late game cleaner and if you switch... bye bye bonus. Main issue is losing your fourth moveslot & item for a onetime setup. Mimkyu can easily stack double SD due to it's resist, STAB and Disguise. Double Dance + LO may require 2-turns, but it's way better than the +3 Z-Splash given the weak BP of most of Mimikyu's moves as well as his average 90 base attack.

But overall I think A-Raichu has one of the better Z-moves given it's a huge electric nuke that also paralyzes 100%. The pokemon itself may need a ton of support and you absolutely want any elec immune pokemon gone. But if you do that then Stoked Sparksurfer feels like one of the best Z moves.
 
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Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
I'd rather run Life Orb on Raichu-A to power up its coverage (your Electric moves already hit hard enough), plus guaranteed Paralysis is super overkill when you already outspeed literally everything in existence with Electric Terrain up.
 
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BlazingRagnarok

Well-Known Member
I'm trying out Z Mirror Move on Tapu Koko in VGC doubles, and I've found that it's good at one very important thing: annihilating Alolan Marowak. See, Z Mirror Move is a Z status move and a Z attacking move at the same time because it uses the Z version of whatever an opponent's last move was after getting a swords dance boost. Normally, all Tapu Koko can do against Lightningrod Marowak is switch out or die, but protect followed by Z mirror move copying Bonemerang will OHKO ghost mom and leave Koko's attack two stages up! Even if that's the limit of its usage, the surprise factor could steal games.
 

Aduro

Mt.BtlMaster
I've been looking into some status Z-Moves recently. I know its more fun to wreck stuff with Devastating Drake, but there are some pretty useful or at least interesting ones out there.


  • Belly Drum looks insane, you restore your HP fully before it cuts it in half again, meaning that it can actually restore HP at times, beats belly drum+ Sitrus if you use it carefully. Could be used with normal moves on Snorlax to great effect too. Kinda wanna try it on Kommo-O soon.
  • Defog increases accuracy which could be nice for offensive defoggers hoping to land hits reliably for late-game cleaning, like archeops with stone edge. Can by used well with Sky Drop or brave bird users who need a little accuracy to clean up.
  • Destiny bond works like follow me as well as regular destiny bond which makes Gengar way more hazardous, I literally think Qwilfish might be able to use it really well in doubles. But Froslass already carries ghost moves so it will probably be more dangerous with it.
  • I'm still trying to figure out what healing wish does. Hopefully something cool.
  • Z magic coat is actually pretty amazing, giving a +2 sp.def boost and potentially reverses hazards. Uxie or Slowbro could cause some trouble with it.
  • Memento works like healing wish and memento, so that's basically perfect for setting up a late-game sweeper.
  • Mirror Move boosts attack to +2 before copying your opponents attack. That makes it seem like Blaziken could become a lot more dangerous in ubers, or Dodrio could use it since it already carries flying moves. Basically think twice before you outrage while your opponent has a bird in the back.
  • Refresh restores HP fully as well as fixing status.
  • Shift gear resets lowered stats even though its only legal users in most competitions get clear body lol. That's definitely the least thought-out Z-Move. Possibly this generations answer to synchronoise umbreon
  • Switcheroo boosts speed to +2 meaning scarf-switch pokemon can outspeed the pokemon the gave a scarf to.



Most Z-Status moves are boring though, they just reset lowered stats or a +1 boost. Or they only fit pokemon that won't be able to use them much. But I think there's something to be said for having pokemon with two option for Z-Moves like dragon dance Haxorus getting its speed back after switching into sticky webs before hitting outrage.



EDIT: Z-Mirror Move copies Z move of your opponents regular move as well as giving a +2 attack boost. So if you have your blaziken protect on a precipice blades, then use Z-mirror move, you get a +2 Attack blaziken using tectonic rage. Then you've got a +2 attack +2 speed blaziken and the other guy has a dead groudon. I had so much fun with that today.
 
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EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
I'm trying out Z Mirror Move on Tapu Koko in VGC doubles, and I've found that it's good at one very important thing: annihilating Alolan Marowak. See, Z Mirror Move is a Z status move and a Z attacking move at the same time because it uses the Z version of whatever an opponent's last move was after getting a swords dance boost. Normally, all Tapu Koko can do against Lightningrod Marowak is switch out or die, but protect followed by Z mirror move copying Bonemerang will OHKO ghost mom and leave Koko's attack two stages up! Even if that's the limit of its usage, the surprise factor could steal games.

I think it's easier to just have something else on the team to deal with Marowak so you don't waste a moveslot and an item on it, but it is a very cool tech if the team is strong otherwise and just struggles with Marowak. It'll be interesting to see if it shows up at any tournaments and does well!
 

Azulart

Shiny Hunter
Z-moves > Mega evolutions

Have yet still to get used to it but in the end I think this is way better because this gives every mon more viability instead of an small selection of mons.
It also gives more variety in gameplay and in competitive play you never know what to expect.

Gotta say that this concept on that foundation just beats Mega-evolutions in general..
Team building is also more complicated now because it was usaully

Choose your mega - Chose battle style - Choose cores etc.. etc..

now we cant start with that mega anymore and gives us more of an challenge or could makes things easier too idk.

( ALSO yes mega + z more are both usuable in Smogon formats but I am speaking of VGC17 formats )
 
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Frozocrone

Miraculous!
Mea Evolution is better overall due to the stat increases being more permanent, but I like Z-moves as a concept more since every Pokemon can use them, even the NFE ones.

The best Z-moves are usually the status moves. Porygon-Z Conversion, Z-Belly-Drum, Z-Heal Block.

Mew and Marshadow's Z-moves are also spectacular. Raichu's too.
 
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