Zygarde Fights Back! The Final Battle for Kalos!! (939)

[Bguy7]

Whelp...so much for not starting a flame war.

It's more darker and more violent than anything we're used to and more engaging than filler episodes but it doesn't do enough to stand out from the overall anime.

If by your own words it's darker, more violent, and more engaging than normal episode, shouldn't that just by definition means it stands out from normal episodes? That's pretty much all I was saying.

As far as heroic sacrifices go Clembot was a cop out. Clembot isn't actually alive, it's a robot. So the audience can't really have an attachment to it. Any emotion you feel for the "sacrifice" is blunted by the fact that Clembot's a talking machine, has no feelings and can't feel pain. Worse still Clembot didn't exactly die - it referred to what happened to it as having it's memory wiped. Has Clemont never heard of back ups! The anime has already done a number of "disney death" scenes where a main character appears to die but is resurrected. Ash in the first movie, Ash again in the 8th movie, Pikachu in the 17th. As well as scenes where actual character deaths have occurred; Lucario in the 8th movie, Latios in the 4th. Those scenes are much more emotional both because they are better scripted than Clembot and they involve a living feeling character the audience has developed a bond with. Even compared to the non-death death scenes Clembot fails to move. If they wanted to create an impact they should have used Luxray or Chespin.

I think we've argued about Clembot before, and from experience you probably won't change your mind. I'm just going to put this out there anyways though. Clembot may not have been an actual person, but he was an actual character, one who recurred throughout the entire series. Not only that, but he was a person to Clemont, and Clemont was the one who had the pull the kill switch. If you don't see that as emotional I'm not sure what would be. Also going to add that Clembot probably does have feelings. It would seem that Clemont managed to build a full-on AI, complete with emotions. As far as losing all memories goes, that is essentially death for an AI. Clemont can rebuild the robotic body, but he can't give it back its memories, meaning that if he makes a new Clembot that it would be an entirely different person (AI).

Also, it's worth noting that I am not saying this was better done than any of the death scenes in the Pokemon movies. I am simply stating that it help make this one of the better episode arcs. It's also worth noting that this is the first death scene to occur in the main anime, rather than a movie.

Galatic had a better plot than Flare largely because they kept to the overall game plot. Personally however I think Plasma and Aqua/Magma stand out more.

So would Team Flare's plot have been better if it directly mirrored X and Y's plot? I really don't think so, seeing as it is almost universally agreed that X and Y had some of the worst plot of any modern Pokemon game.

All I got from this was, "I'm an easily excitable person and can't see flaws in anything as long as there is action! PWRZ!!!"

Sorry if I came off that way, that's not what I meant. Let me clarify a few things. First off, I had said in an earlier post that it had its flaws. No where did I say that the arc was perfect. I just think it's pros far outweighed its cons. The action was also just one aspect that I very much enjoyed, the others being the plot, use of characters, and all around presentation.

Let's be honest here. Pokemon is not, and probably will never be one of the greatest made TV shows on TV. It has more than its fair share of flaws and issues, just as these episodes did. That being said, I truly do believe that even with those flaws these episodes reached a new level for the series. They were nowhere near perfect, but we saw a side of the show that we have never seen before. Let me ask a new question, even accounting for its flaws, do you deny that this arc was better than the rest of the series as a whole? I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just truly curious because I just can't imagine that being the case.

 

[Pikachu52]

So would Team Flare's plot have been better if it directly mirrored X and Y's plot? I really don't think so, seeing as it is almost universally agreed that X and Y had some of the worst plot of any modern Pokemon game.

I think that actually would have been better. The arch and the games suffer from the same flaws - they both dump most of the action right at the end with a plot so dramatic that Team Flare's villainy becomes cartoonish. However the games at least made Lysandre known to the player early on and we got a slightly better explanation and understanding of his motives than we do in the anime. Lysander's character could have been built on for the anime in say the way they have in Pokémon Generations. It also would have meant leaving out some of the parts of XYZ that, at least in my opinion didn't work, namely Alain, Bonnie's relationship with Squishy and the rushed pacing in which Team Flare's appearance consisted of three episodes chasing Zygarde and a five episode climax.

 

[Bguy7]

I think that actually would have been better. The arch and the games suffer from the same flaws - they both dump most of the action right at the end with a plot so dramatic that Team Flare's villainy becomes cartoonish. However the games at least made Lysandre known to the player early on and we got a slightly better explanation and understanding of his motives than we do in the anime. Lysander's character could have been built on for the anime in say the way they have in Pokémon Generations. It also would have meant leaving out some of the parts of XYZ that, at least in my opinion didn't work, namely Alain, Bonnie's relationship with Squishy and the rushed pacing in which Team Flare's appearance consisted of three episodes chasing Zygarde and a five episode climax.

I'm actually of two minds on this. On one hand, seeing story elements from the game animated is always cool, and you're certainly right, they could have easily improved the story. At the same time, I think it's pretty cool to see them doing something completely original too. I do think that XYZ as a whole could have been a lot better if they actually spread its plot out a little bit more. It did come off as a bit rushed. Though, I did like Alain and Squishy myself.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to say that just following the games would make it better alone. It may have potential to be better, but it has equal potential to be screwed up too.

 

[Shadao]

I think that actually would have been better. The arch and the games suffer from the same flaws - they both dump most of the action right at the end with a plot so dramatic that Team Flare's villainy becomes cartoonish. However the games at least made Lysandre known to the player early on and we got a slightly better explanation and understanding of his motives than we do in the anime. Lysander's character could have been built on for the anime in say the way they have in Pokémon Generations. It also would have meant leaving out some of the parts of XYZ that, at least in my opinion didn't work, namely Alain, Bonnie's relationship with Squishy and the rushed pacing in which Team Flare's appearance consisted of three episodes chasing Zygarde and a five episode climax.

Considering that Lysandre appeared in the first Mega Evolution special episode and has been a consistent presence for Alain's character, I don't think he appeared too late. Team Flare appeared just enough to not end losing all of their threat credibility in the anime, whereas the games kinda made them into Team Rocket trio 6.0. That and the focus was on Lysandre and they did a better job of making Lysandre have a more believable facade.

I wouldn't mind having the Ultimate Weapon be adapted in the anime, but they would need to take some liabilities to the underdeveloped plot points such as AZ as well as making it appear natural as the climax of everything rather a side-climax before the League.

 

[matt0044]

I'm actually of two minds on this. On one hand, seeing story elements from the game animated is always cool, and you're certainly right, they could have easily improved the story. At the same time, I think it's pretty cool to see them doing something completely original too. I do think that XYZ as a whole could have been a lot better if they actually spread its plot out a little bit more. It did come off as a bit rushed. Though, I did like Alain and Squishy myself.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to say that just following the games would make it better alone. It may have potential to be better, but it has equal potential to be screwed up too.

If you're looking for an adaptation of the XY games that utilizes the potential of Team Flare and Lysandre in particular, then check out Pokemon Special's XY chapter. They seriously take a game's rather lax plot and turn it into a story that keeps the ball rolling. So if that Manga could do that with one writer, then what's to say that the Anime couldn't do the same?

 

[Orton155]

Wow that was incredible.

It just want the whole arc has been trying to tell us. If we work together, we can all defeat an evil or invoke a common good.

Order was restored with everyone's help and my thoughts are just positive for this particular arc in the series. Sadly, this marks the XY series coming to a close but there are still a few episodes left to cherish.

Excellent episode, onto the next one!

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

This episode is finally out in the Dutch dub. I've got to say, it's a pretty good wrap-up. Not sure why the Dutch dub already has Sun and Moon episodes 1 and 2 out while it isn't finished with XYZ yet, but anyway. The main weird thing keeps on being so much characters having the same voice actor. The Dutch dub has the same voice for Zygarde red, Alain, Steven, and the Kalos League referee, which is really noticeable in an episode when they're all together.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

The thing I love about this episode is Bonnie basically giving the OK to kill Lysandre to her giant dragon robot monster. She's going to be a terrifying Trainer in the future.

 

[Willow's Tara]

Well this was a good end to a epic arc, no wonder the League was lackluster, they were too focused on this. Lysandre you are alive again... Oh no there you go, dead again, aleast it wasn't he's still alive and like Hunter J, he will be dead.
It was fun seeing them work together, of course all the gym leaders were basically captured, much as I really wished Cynthia had come to this, I loved the Steven/Diantha stance together, and one Spritzee saved them all, oh I see a great champion in the making there, (I forgot her name though, but the Fairy Type who talks in Pokemon speech), she's going place.
Malva just seems badass now I know who she is, I really wish we would see her again honestly.
Serena does barely anything, the one companion... Misty, Dawn, May, they all have loads on saving the world then she does (I haven;t seen all of Iris's arc, so I can't comment on her, hope the Unova series is put on Netflix because I only saw the first season or so).
Don't know why I thought Squishy would be staying with Bonnie, mostly because of the credits I guess that he was a main character, but nope can't give a girl who isn't a legal trainer yet a legendary Pokemon, she did pretty much control it though. It was mature that Bonnie wasn't as upset like with Tyrant, she grew up and had development

Team Rocket still doesn't blast off, they really made a streak with not blasting off here in a row, I love how Ash was like TF how long have they been here? And Dianthe didn't waste time in saving them despite what happened between them earlier. I knew they were eventually going to reveal themselves and basically get a shot in against the stone beast.
Good ending

 

[LilligantLewis]

Ooh looky it's time for more reactions to an ep in the middle of public in no particular order with me!

Me: welp...RIP every gym leader except clemont... Oh wait this is Pokemon they'll come back within this ep
Me: bring on the Steven x Diantha intense bromance I never thought of until watching this (I now ship Steven platonically with Roxanne, Wallace, Diantha, May, Brendan, Malva, Alain, Mairin, the Hoenn elite four...Damn)
Me: ...Bonnie just straight up killed a guy •.•
Me: I think Wallace should've been here as well tbh...
Me: Damn Meyer. That was a plot twist I didn't see coming.
Me: And thus, Squishy and Z2 were the only ones to make it to the ocean
Me: Aaaand so, the massive blast which Lysandre had been preparing for the past two years was...blocked by a Spritzee. Cause fluffy pink ball of doom amirite
Me: N'awww, Marisson is getting real
Me: um...Steven why are you hanging with Malva? Why? I'm confused... Wouldn't it make more sense for him to hang out with Diantha? Idk
Me: Where dafuq is the rest of the elite four?
Me: oh my god that bit where they're all lining up and Zygardlith is gonna wreck stuff and you can see all of them is awesome
Me: .....
Me: .....
That bit where they're all like "Go!" Just got me ='D

I luv it so much :3

But I wish Malva hadn't gone good until someone (you all know at this point) had fought against her and convinced her to switch

Lol that you kept on saying "Me:" every time, eventhough there's no one else it could have been

If you're looking for an adaptation of the XY games that utilizes the potential of Team Flare and Lysandre in particular, then check out Pokemon Special's XY chapter. They seriously take a game's rather lax plot and turn it into a story that keeps the ball rolling. So if that Manga could do that with one writer, then what's to say that the Anime couldn't do the same?

The anime is primarily a marketing tool for the games, and in this case was tasked with advertising two features of the SM games (Zygarde Cells and Perfect Zygarde) while simultaneously trying to adapt the XY villain plot line into this advertising of SM features.

The anime is much more restricted in its creative freedom than the manga.

This episode is finally out in the Dutch dub. I've got to say, it's a pretty good wrap-up. Not sure why the Dutch dub already has Sun and Moon episodes 1 and 2 out while it isn't finished with XYZ yet

It's to advertise the SM games. The same thing happened in the English dub in generations III, VI, and VII, where episodes 1 and 2 aired before the previous generation had finished airing.

. It was mature that Bonnie wasn't as upset like with Tyrant, she grew up and had development

And this is exactly why Bonnie was a well done character, better than Max, and even better than Misty, Brock, and Cilan

People can call the Flabébé and Tyrunt episodes fillers all they want, but in reality, they were done on purpose as key parts of Bonnie's character development leading up to this moment. People can criticize XY all they want, but it at least gave all four characters arcs, it didn't necessarily do all four of them well, but it at least had four arcs, unlike the most praised series DP, which only had 2 characters with arcs and in which Brock did nothing

Team Rocket still doesn't blast off, they really made a streak with not blasting off here in a row, I love how Ash was like TF how long have they been here? And Dianthe didn't waste time in saving them despite what happened between them earlier. I knew they were eventually going to reveal themselves and basically get a shot in against the stone beast.
Good ending

Great pun on Team Flare with the TF having a double meaning

 

[xEryChan]

To me, this was the best conclusion to a villainous team’s arc I’ve seen from the anime yet. The whole Team Flare arc really kept me on the edge of my seat and it definitely did not disappoint at all. I am throughly pleased with these past couple lf episodes.

 

[Leonhart]

I honestly liked that Fleur-de-lis was actually killed off at the end of his master plan and that he wasn't just arrested and thrown in a prison cell. Seeing Carnet's Sirnight save the Rocket-dan trio from falling was nice as well, and so was the fact that the Kalos Gym Leaders were all involved and made a difference in stopping the Flare-dan.

 

[Mega Altaria]

The Core Enforcer and Complete Zygarde. Literally the best thing ever in XYZ. Nice end to a very intense arc but before then in this episode it was intense anyway with the Gym Leaders sacrificing themselves to their very limits so that Ash and Alain could get to the core of the rock and rescue Chespie. Well its goodbye to both Squishy and Lysandre but I would have liked Serena to do more because she couldn't just get any closer to the rock and just had to protect herself and Mairin from the incoming root attacks by getting her Pokémon to attack the roots.

 

[Leonhart]

I now wonder if perhaps Alain should've received punishment when the Flare-dan's scheme ended here since practically everyone else who was part of the organization faced repercussions. But I guess him saving Hari-san was meant to redeem him.

 

[Pikachu Fan Number Nine]

I wonder if the Japanese version explicitly states that Lysandre is dead.

I know that the dub usually edits such references out.

 

[mehmeh1]

I wonder if the Japanese version explicitly states that Lysandre is dead.

I know that the dub usually edits such references out.

from what I remember (haven't watched this ep in full since 2016, so don't quote me please), they didn't explicitly say it, but eh, nobody can survive THAT

 

[Lord Starfish]

I wonder if the Japanese version explicitly states that Lysandre is dead.

I know that the dub usually edits such references out.

It does not. This is all that's said on the matter:

 

[Leonhart]

Fleur-de-lis being dead or alive doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things from my viewpoint, because he'll never appear again much like most of the other regional villains. His role is simply over.

 

[Ignition]

God tier episode. Having all of Kalos's cast (except the rest of the E4 because idk lol) stand up to the Megalith is still a cool moment even after all these years. And when Zygarde uses Core Enforcer after Bonnie encourages it? That's what made it my favorite Legendary. Fitting end for Lysandre. Best villain arc by a mile.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

God this episode was such a great experience, the Hype was off the charts and it was such a brilliant way to end the hypest and best villain arc in the anime!!