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Uber Thread

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by McDanger, Nov 7, 2013.

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  1. Rocxidi

    Rocxidi ס₪₪₪§€ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ7

    Can anyone tell me why the hell Heatran isn't a Uber? It's immune to Toxic and Will-o-Wisp, it has two immunities, a lot of resistances and really good defenses. And don't say "it's weak to Earthquake, the most popular move ever." There's the Air Balloon and the fact that it can team up with Dragons. And I forgot to mention the fact that Lava Plume has a +50% chance of burn when Hax comes into play. Also, (this goes for all legendaries) there is NO WAY for someone to obtain a 6IV Heatran without hacks or mods.
     
  2. Fishlover43

    Fishlover43 Banned

    Because it's slow and is 4x weak to the most common attacking type. Don't turn into a guy I found out about by lurking in the previous Pokémon of the Week threads. Go there because any and all things you need to know are there.

    Heatran is not OP and never will be. He's not hard to beat if you're a smart player or have a Ground or Water Type on your team.

    Also Lava Plume is a 30% chance, not 50.

    Edit: www. serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?630179-Community-POTW-027&p=17127310#post17127310

    Jesusfreak, Cloneblazer, KillerDraco, and The Imposter explain everything you need to know. (Remove the space after the 3 w's since I can't post links as a new member)
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  3. It's buky and strong, yes, but it also has very middling speed and weaknesses to some of the most common attacking types. Lack of reliable recovery means it can't perform its duty of walling certain special attackers as well as it possibly could. Air Balloon sucks.

    Basically, while Heatran is good, it doesn't require people to put a specific counter to it on their team to have a chance at winning.
     
  4. Rocxidi

    Rocxidi ס₪₪₪§€ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ7

    I meant that Heatran burnt three of my Pokemon in a row, while, mathematically, only one of them should've been burnt...

    But thanks.
     
  5. Fishlover43

    Fishlover43 Banned

    So because a Pokémon haxed you one time, it should be Ubers?
     
  6. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu class on my back

    Okay so too bring this thread up to speed:


    Swagger Clause is actually being considered in Ubers. Currently it's being discussed in Smogon here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagger-clause.3508659/

    But we can do speculation here as well! What do all of you think?

    Personally I hate Swagger lul pls ban it
     
  7. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    While Swagger is less of a problem when you start playing people that are actually good, Swagger is better off gone. It's just as bad in Ubers as it was in OU, I've even seen people run things like Swagger + Foul Play Yveltal, even awful stuff like level 1 Magnemite with Sturdy Juice and Swagger, and the amount of luck in seeing random stuff running Swagger is obnoxious. It doesn't really serve much of a purpose outside of annoying people and turning the game into a test of luck. It's not that Swagger is any bit broken, it's just a dumb move that people abuse just to turn the game into a test of luck rather than an actually competitive battle. Almost like Funbro.
     
  8. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    I'd say it's worse than Funbro, because it's a very passive strategy. Unlike Funbro, or even Haxrachi's ParaFlinch, you can just slap a Swagger on and then do other things, whereas Funbro has to keep recycling and healing, and users of Serene Grace have to keep using their flinching move. Swagger needs nothing to sustain itself.

    I'd have no objections to banning it. But time will tell. Although it's somewhat ironic that it's only just now being suspected after being around for years and multiple generations.
     
  9. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    Well I mean, Funbro is functionally different than Swagger, the only purpose Funbro had was to force ragequits. I guess it's not quite an easy comparison, Swagger is more similar to a Double Team/Minimize or Moody now that I think of it. In the end, it does stop being as big a problem when you're playing with more serious players, but seeing it at all is just a mess and it would be better if it was gone from Ubers. I guess like Funbro, people just happened to discover it and abuse enough this gen to bring it to people's attention.
     
  10. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    I'm one of the few people who doesn't want it banned, primarily due to the fact that it (much like everything else in the game) can easily be countered with the right strategies. Things with magic bounce can make swagger-based strategies (swag-wave and swag play being the most common) useless, things with a lum berry can also make it useless, and things with own tempo like avalugg can benefit huge off of it by essentially getting a free swords dance and a free move. Things like moody or leppa/recycle porygon2 are pure annoyance and should never see the light of day in the metagames. Things like swagger on the other hand, well, they'd may as well ban flatter and confuse ray as well if they're so scared of 100% accurate confusion moves.
     
  11. Kyogre can be countered by Gastrodon and Assault Vest Parasect let's unban it
    Xerneas can be countered by Scizor and Aegislash let's unban it
    Darkrai can be countered by Sleep Talk Heracross and Vital Spirit Primeape let's unban it

    so on and so forth

    Swagger wasn't banned because it has no counters. Swagger was banned because nobody wants to have to run said counters if they want a remotely good team. Everything has counters. It just so happens that Swagger does too. The thing about Swagger in particular is that it puts the game completely up to luck if you don't have these counters, and the popular Swagger sets were really good at turning each turn from a normal 50-50 to a 70-30 or even an 80-20. It's the same reason that they're considering nerfing BP chains: If you have x Pokemon, you win; if you don't, you lose.

    That's why Swagger was banned, and why I am fully in favor of an overall Swagger Clause.
     
  12. Mye

    Mye Someone has to win..

    Yeah, this is the UBERS thread/tier though, so your first examples make absolutely no sense. In all battles though, you can usually lose the game if you have no counters to certain types/pokemon. Does that mean we should ban Mewtwo's megastones and Kyurem-W from ubers? No. If they chose to ban every little thing that became a major threat then after a while there would be about 500 pokemon banned and only 50 or so usable ones. Swagger has counters, and pretty solid/scary ones. Anything with a lum berry and a status move can usually remove swagger as a threat (things like groudon being a good example, as it's also immune to t-wave), as can switching which I think many people forget about this move. Banning swagger is a pretty horrible idea, as not only do many of the common runners of it also have confuse ray/flatter in their movepools (making the drop-off not too bad), but many of the common users of said move in UBERS (just to clarify it for you, not ou, but UBERS) basically become useless should the opponent manage to get any move off on them.
     
  13. Swagger Clause is to be applied to all metagame. That's what a clause does. The points I brought up apply to every metagame, not just OU. Since the main metagame this is affecting is Ubers, that's why the discussion is in the Ubers thread. Swagger's much worse than Confuse Ray/Flatter because it doubles the amount of damage you do to yourself, while other confusion-inducing moves are minor annoyances. That doubled Attack stat also enables the opponent to use Foul Play for major damage. Yeah, you can just switch out. The opposing Klefki just set up a Substitute then either paralyzed the mon you sent in or Swaggered it so that the cycle just starts over again. Combine that with the fact that entry hazards are frequently paired with this, as is a Ditto so you can't just set up on it, and you're left with an insanely irritating strategy that does the same thing in every metagame - puts the game completely up to dumb luck unless they have dedicated counters to the strategy, which may not synergize well with their team. Smogon bans and clauses exist to promote decentralization and balance in the metagames. Obviously some degree of centralization will form due to the nature of Pokemon, but Swagger was deemed too uncompetitive for OU and was banned to the Uber tier. Now they're considering banning it from every tier. I don't see what the issue is.
     
  14. Rio!

    Rio! Composer

    I'm on board with there being a Swagger-Clause.
    Magic Bounce is fine and good, but even that isn't as reliable when said counter is going to get Foul Play'd to death (bar Mega Absol).
    I've see several battles where the situation The Imposter used as an example ends up happening, and if you happen to have a bad run of luck, your team will end up half dead before it can properly get together a counter.

    Prankster Klefki mostly brought attention to the Swagger this Gen because of it's typing and Defensive stats since there are a limited number of ways to actually deal with it.
     
  15. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu class on my back

    To be honest, I don't think the main problem with Swagger is how difficult it is to counter (though it is pretty hard when combined with Prankster) but just how simply infuriating it is. Swagger takes out the competitive nature in competitive tiers because any player, no matter how new, can pretty much just spam the move and win with sheer luck.

    Also, once Swagger starts rolling, "pulling off moves" becomes the hardest thing to achieve, and therefore, fainting the opponent's Pokemon becomes ridiculously difficult. That's why the Swagger Clause is being considered.
     
  16. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu class on my back

    OKAY IM UPDATING THIS THREAD AGAIN.

    So the Swagger Clause has been officially extended to Ubers. No more random Liepards for you!
     
  17. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu class on my back

  18. Tormented

    Tormented Well-Known Member

    I hope they do a shadow tag ban and not just Gengarite. Imo Gothitelle is more broken than M-Gengar. It can switch in and trap anything whenever it wants and start setting up calm minds unlike Gengar who has to mega evolve first before it can trap anything.
     
  19. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu class on my back

    Lord this is dead. Bump
     
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