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Discussion in '5th Gen In-Game RMT' started by Soberheartless, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. Soberheartless

    Soberheartless Well-Known Member

    Hey, so to start things off Pokémon is something that I love to do. I decided that since I've never done it before, I'd enter one of the competitions, so currently I am in the March Competition. However, unexpectedly, my team is receiving one loss after another, it's quite depressing actually. I don't battle competitively so it came as quite a shock to lose THIS much... And I noticed that most people use a LOT of the same Pokémon [Cresselia, Scizor, Hydreigon] that I don't have... Anyway, here's my team.

    Samurott [Mystic Water]

    Hydro Cannon

    Samurott is my starter, and it's reliable. It's usually the last one to go down. I use it for it's great attack and ability to take hits.

    Crobat [Scope Lens]

    Cross Poison
    Confuse Ray

    Crobat is another one of my personal favorites. It is a speed DEMON [not to mention Hasty natured!] and I use it for fast blows. Confuse Ray helps out a lot too.

    Flygon [Soft Sand]

    Dragon Claw
    Rock Slide
    Earth Power

    Now...Flygon is such an awesome Pokémon with a lot of potential, but it's unfortunate that I honestly don't know what to do with it. I look at it's moveset and cringe...I guess Rock Slide is good being a double battle tournament and for flinching...but that's basically it.

    N's Zoroark [Rocky Helmet]

    Focus Blast
    Night Slash
    Night Daze
    Nasty Plot

    This one is fast, and is in almost all my battles as it assists in making the opponent be caught off guard. It's defenses can use some work, maybe it's attacks. I don't use Nasty Plot though, as it doesn't survive long enough to be set up...

    Leafeon [Meadow Plate]

    Leaf Blade
    Sunny Day

    I love Leafeon as Grass is my favorite type. However, the types I usually see give Leafeon a hard time and it rarely battles to survive long enough to set up Sunny Day and attack swiftly. This is my only EV trained Pokémon as I got it post-game from an Eevee egg. I like it's moveset, maybe help on a held item?

    Latios [Shell Bell]

    Draco Meteor
    Calm Mind
    Ice Beam

    Now...I don't like legendaries, but I needed something to make my team a little more threatening. I caught it for the competition...I was super pissed seeing that Soul Dew was a nogo, so Shell Bell was it's second best option. However, it has a TERRIBLE NATURE as in bad speed good attack which is terrible......ugh. It dies a lot too as it has a low defense stat [Like 120 while the rest of the stats are like 160]....Ugh, I'm dying and cringing inside.

    Also, abilities are Torrent, Inner Focus, Levitate, Illusion, Leaf Guard, and Levitate

  2. Squiddly Dee

    Squiddly Dee ∈ (⊙ ⊖ ⊙) ∋

    Get rid of Earth Power for Earthquake on Flygon. Not only does Flygon have much higher Attack than Special Attack, Earthquake has higher BP.
  3. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    First thing's first, I think this sort of thread belongs in Competitive RMT, since you mentioned it's for competitive battles as opposed to in-game ones.

    But the reason why you probably got stomped so hard is more a matter of the fact that in competitive battles, having appropriate natures and specifically EV training your Pokemon is pretty much mandatory; you will get stomped without those two factors. IV Breeding/RNGing is also important, but that's a whole different can of worms. The fact that you mentioned Leafeon is the only properly EV trained Pokemon is probably a big indicator of why you're having a losing streak; having better EVs than your opponent pretty much is gamebreaking.

    And there's a lot of little things all over the place.

    Two-turn moves (like Fly) are generally useless since, unlike the AI, people will just switch to an appropriate counter when they see you initiate the first turn of the attack. Same deal with Hydro Cannon (or any other Hyper Beam-like move); the high power might seem nice, but being a sitting duck on the turn after lets your foe do anything and everything to you. You do not want to ever give them a free turn, and attacks like those do just that.

    You don't want to mix things like Draco Meteor and Calm Mind as you did on Latios. Draco Meteor's stat drops are best for hit-and-run strategies to rid yourself of the drops, but Calm Mind boosting typically suggests you want to stay in as long as possible to take advantage of the boosts. The two are directly at odds with one another.

    Except in certain rare cases, you generally don't want redundant type moves (aka, two moves of the same type on the same Pokemon). You have this going on Zoroark and Samurott.

    Also, you want to play to your Pokemon's highest stats; things like Night Slash on Zoroark and Earth Power on Flygon are counterproductive, since the former has higher special attack, and the latter has higher attack. Play to your Pokemon's strengths, and you can use natures to this effect as well. For example, since Flygon shouldn't be using its special attack stat, you can utilize an Adamant or Jolly nature.

    You typically want to use better items than those you're using, as well. Things like Leftovers, Choice Items (though you have to be able to predict really well), Life Orb, etc. all have more powerful effects, and those effects can be game-breaking. They also need to match the Pokemon using them; you don't want a Zoroark ever to use a Rocky Helmet, because its poor defense means it'll get KO'ed in one or two hits, and thus you won't get Rocky Helmet to deal much (if any) damage.

    Not to be mean, but if you want to turn it into a competitive team, you need to re-work it from the ground up. You can't just take an in-game team and throw it into competitive and hope it'll succeed; competitive and in-game have wildly different strategies, especially considering in-game has numerous benefits that you won't have in competitive (being able to outlevel your opponent, being able to use items, being able to switch after a KO, etc.).

    Sorry if it's harsh.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  4. Soberheartless

    Soberheartless Well-Known Member

    Thanks! Not harsh at all actually, I get what you're saying. It sucks how I can't take them back and rework them for the competition! Anyway, I was thinking about Earthquake on Flygon but my only concern is the fact that it's a double battle. I don't know if it's worth my Pokémon losing HP on top of then losing HP from opponents. And yeah, the Calm Mind was sort of like to counter the whole Sp. Atk drop. Draco Meteor's my last chance move anyway, so when it gets used it usually knocks out. When I saw the Latios's nature I really wanted to restart, but then I thought about how hard it was to catch [and also the fact I caught in a Pokéball nonetheless!] made me just keep it. Also, I have several other Pokémon in reserve. Any advice for these?

    Sunflora [Miracle Seed] *Solar Power*

    Giga Drain
    Petal Dance
    Sunny Day

    Azumarill [Leftovers] *Huge Power*

    Double Edge
    Aqua Ring

    Swoobat [Shell Bell] *Unaware*

    Calm Mind
    Air Slash
    Future Sight

    Flareon [Quick Claw] *Flash Fire*

    Quick Attack
    Fire Blast
    Heal Bell

    Omastar [Hard Stone] *Weak Armor*

    Mud Shot
    Ancient Power
    Muddy Water

    Heracross [Expert Belt] *Swarm*

    Aerial Ace
    Brick Break
    Close Combat

    Sawsbuck [Miracle Seed] *Serene Grace*

    Double Edge
    Horn Leech

    Probopass [Expert Belt] *Sturdy*

    Thunder Wave
    Stone Edge

    This is actually what I intended to be my 6th Pokémon on my team, instead of Latios but then I thought it might get a little outclassed...Sturdy is incredibly useful which then I could use Thunder Wave, but I feel with Stealth Rock it could be a better addition. Where do you get that [Is it a TM? I don't have it.]

    Mantine [Sharp Beak] *Swift Swim*

    Rain Dance
    Air Slash
    Confuse Ray

    Gliscor [Razor Fang] *Sand Veil*

    Sky Uppercut
    Sky Attack

    However, Sky Attack is strong and with the upped evasiveness of Sandstorm, sometimes I don't even get hit which is great! And Slash I'm planning to get rid of for Earthquake. [As soon as I find that TM too]

    And, I also have the Muskedeers, so ideas for those movesets?
  5. Squiddly Dee

    Squiddly Dee ∈ (⊙ ⊖ ⊙) ∋

    Aqua Ring is terrible. Get it off of Azumarill right now. Same with Quick Attack on Flareon. And why does Omastar have Ancientpower? There are so many other Rock moves it could have instead. These movesets, while they do work in-game, just cannot be used competitively. If you intend to use these Pokemon in competitive battles, they have to have completely different movesets. What tier does this Pokemon have to be suited for? How does my Pokemon need to work with the others on my team? What common threats does it need to be able to take out? You need to consider all of these things when creating a team intended for competitive use.
  6. Sohryu

    Sohryu Be a Man!

    Latios@Life Orb
    Timid Nature (+Speed -SpAtk)
    ~Dragon Pulse
    ~Calm Mind

    Roost is meant to deal with all damage dealt by Life Orb recoil. Dragon+Water gets enough coverage all by itself. The worst thing you might face is a godamn-******* Empoleon, which can be a problem...keep this in mind.

    Keep in mind, too, that Latios sets have some variants. Its all up to yourself to decide which one gonna to suit your team better. I'm not gonna post ALL the Latios sets, right now. I'll wait other raters to do that. Then, if they don't, i will.

    Also, Flygon "can" run a Special Set. He just not the best with it. Its like suggesting Physical Togekiss when his Special counterpart is way better.
    If you want, i will post something to him, but yes...it might be just as bad a Physical Togekiss.

    Good luck, bro!
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  7. Soberheartless

    Soberheartless Well-Known Member

    Interesting Latios set.. and what do you think I should replace Aqua Ring with [for Azumarill]? When it comes to Flygon, it learns so many moves, it's hard to choose from, but as time was running out I ended up with moves it learns via Moveset, which aren't too great. Is Draco Meteor worth it for Flygon? Or maybe something like Outrage [the problem being in Confusion where if it hits itself it'll be taking a LOT of damage.] My Flygon's really fast [almost as Crobat] and hits hard physically, but for STAB it only utilizes Dragon Claw, which is a bland move...
  8. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Oi... there's problems all across the board.

    Gliscor should be used as a defensive Pokemon with Poison Heal, Heracross should never use Swarm under any conditions (Guts and Moxie are both a million times better), Quick Claw is too unreliable to be used competitively, Shell Bell is terrible and should never be used since its healing is unreliable, Sunflora is one of the worst grass types and should never be used in anything resembling a competitive battle, Dive, Dig, Bounce, and Sky Attack all have the same two-turn problems...

    Once again, you may find yourself needing to start from square 1 with making a new team if you're looking to go competitive, because most of your options aren't going to get you very far. You'll need more than a couple move pool fixes, you may need to breed entirely new Pokemon.
  9. Sohryu

    Sohryu Be a Man!

    Flygon's Movepool isn't good. It's useable, and can definitely be used.

    Draco Meteor is not good. As i said, he can be Special, but it's bad...like, a lot.

    Flygon can be like that:

    Flygon@Life Orb
    Jolly Nature (+Spe -SpAtk)
    ~Dragon Claw
    ~Stone Edge

    Yes; Roost. The use of Life Orb will render Flygon useless in a few turns. Roost helps deal with those drawbacks. The boost of Life Orb is kinda appealing to Flygon, since its Attack Stat isn't good, so he likes the boost of LO.
    Both Dragon Claw and Earthquake are solid STABs, packing a great power and perfect accuracy. Dragon+Ground gives you some nice coverage, but you should fear Skarmory all the way. A nice counter to Skarmory is Fire Punch, that can replace Stone-edge, its all your choice.
  10. Soberheartless

    Soberheartless Well-Known Member

    That's an awesome moveset for Flygon, thanks!

    And while I agree with you, getting a Gliscor with Poison Heal is kind of difficult...
  11. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    He did mention he would be doing Doubles, so Rock Slide over Stone Edge should be considered.

    Anyway, if you're looking to make a team with the Pokemon you listed, the most usable ones are Flygon, Zoroark, Crobat, Azumarill, Heracross, and Gliscor. Not necessarily with the sets you've given them (especially not Heracross and Gliscor since they need their better abilities), and not necessarily those six Pokemon on a single team, but most of the other Pokemon you listed tend to be... outclassed. See, you mentioned seeing a lot of the same Pokemon, and there is a reason for that. Pokemon that tend to outclass others in a certain niche are used most often. Competitive Pokemon tends to arrange Pokemon into tiers based on how often they're used. Tier ROUGHLY CORRELATES to how good they are, but it's not an absolute by any means (as we all know, correlation does not imply causation). It helps to familiarize yourself with them, if for no other reason than to know what Pokemon you can expect to face more often.

    Anyway, Zoroark's movepool is easy to fix, and it has a usable nature (N's Zorua/Zoroark is always Hasty), though EVs will still be a hindrance to you. If you're not going to bother using Nasty Plot, just drop it. Try something like this:

    Zoroark @ Focus Sash
    -Night Daze
    -Focus Blast
    -Grass Knot

    It's a pretty self explanatory set. Zoroark may be fairly quick and has good special attack, but it's frail as a twig. Focus Sash will guarantee it survives at least one attack, which can often be the difference you need. You mentioned you don't ever use Nasty Plot due to Zoroark's frailty, so you might as well drop it for more coverage. The four moves listed tend to be your best bet when it comes to coverage with special attacks... Zoroark doesn't have too many other options. But with Illusion sometimes tricking your opponent, you can potentially score a surprise KO if you've got the appropriate move.

    Really? It took me two days to get a female Gligar from the Dream World. Maybe I was just lucky.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2013
  12. Shine

    Shine Psyched Up Staff Member Moderator

    Won't move this thread to the competitive section, since this thread would just either gets killed or gets moved back here, due to lack of EVs and role description

    for N's Zoroark, I think it's a good idea to include at least 1 physical move.
    It has a usable Attack stat and 30 Attack IV, so why not try Return over Grass Knot? Or Low Sweep over Focus Miss.

    And since I haven't see anyone doing anything on Crobat and Leafeon.....

    Hasty Nature
    ~Heat Wave
    ~Giga Drain
    ~Cross Poison
    ~Aerial Ace/Brave Bird

    Jolly Nature
    ~Leaf Blade
    ~Swords Dance

    Too bad none of Leafeon's ability is useful outside the sun.
  13. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    That's a valid point. Though I guess I'd personally suggest the Low Sweep option, since it can be a rude awakening for everyone's favorite annoying pink blob if it comes in seeking to sponge Zoroark's special attacks (assuming its illusion is already broken)

    Also not to nitpick but it's actually 30 attack IVs, not that it changes your point in the slightest.
  14. Soberheartless

    Soberheartless Well-Known Member

    I've been trying my luck and am winning now, so :D and for Crobat, aren't Special Attacks really BAD on it...it doesn't have the Special Attack like..at all
  15. Sohryu

    Sohryu Be a Man!

    The TC already stated he does not want to have an Poison Heal Gliscor. While i agree that Poison Heal Gliscor is neat, it doesn't need to be really changed. That's such a small thing...
    If the TC stated he doesn't want, he doesn't want; its simple.

    Glicor can run:
    Adamam Nature (+Atk -SpAtk)
    ~Ice Fang
    ~Rock Polish/Swords Dance
    ~Aqua Tail/U-turn/Fire Fang

    An Poison-Heal Gliscor is one of the best things ever, but since you don't want one, we can stick with what you have.
    Anyways, set-up Gliscor. I do prefer him like that.
    Earthquake is the STAB here. It packs enough punch to destroy anything that doesn't resist it.
    On the Second Slot we have Ice Fang to deal with opposite Ground/Flying/Grass Types that resists your STAB. Sure, sure, Ice Fang won't be able to KO everything, but at least an 2HKO it'll ensure, since we're aiming to beat what i've already mentioned earlier. On the third Slot, it's all up to yourself to decide. Rock Polish Gliscor will outspeed like, everything, after 1 use. If you're still afraid you will not outspeed whatever threat, you can ensure that by using Rock Polish one more time. 2x is enough. But, if you want more power (Since Gliscor packs good speed) you can run Swords Dance, instead. It may be better than RP, really.
    On the last slot, you have your options. Aqua Tail will deal good damages to Steel types in general. It packs good power alongside Swords Dance. But with Rock Polish? I don't think so. If you will run Rock Polish Set, then, i suggest U-turn because of 'Zong, which Gliscor fears. None of its moves scratch him, rendering Gliscor Useless. The same also applies to an SD Gliscor. But, SD Gliscor can deal damage with Aqua Taill already, it just isn't great. Fire Fang is the poor options of all. It should be considered only if you fear that much Steel Types. But i don't recommend it.

    Also, your team have huge weakness to Ice types and Bronzong, specially. Consider a change.
  16. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Crobat's special attack is definitely lower than its attack, but it's not like a Conkeldurr type difference; it's base 90 attack vs. base 70 special attack. It's not spectacular but it is usable... And it can fry some of its usual counters with surprise special attacks. Bulky water types or rock types might think themselves safe but be forced to eat a Giga Drain, and likewise, Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, and Ferrothorn all burn when exposed to Heat Wave, but would wall the heck out of Crobat under normal conditions.

    Perhaps I missed something, but where did was it said that the TC didn't want it? It was mentioned that the TC agreed about Poison Heal Gliscor, but wasn't sure if one could be obtained easily though heck if they really want I could always give one since I've got a female sitting in my box for breeding purposes
  17. Soberheartless

    Soberheartless Well-Known Member

    Basically, I'm getting the gist of 1) starting over from square 1 with new Pokémon b/c of their tiers and 2) getting new movesets. Ok, gives me something to think about. thanks everyone who contributed! If you have more ideas, please keep them coming. As for this trainer, he's hittin the sac' !
  18. Shockking

    Shockking i dont know anymore

    In all seriousness, if you really want to do well (I assume you're interested in the VGC format that the tournament you're doing is held in) then I'd really strongly advise diving into Nugget Bridge a site dedicated to battles in this format and read up in the beginners section. Probably start with this article. Also, as Draco said proper EVs and even IVs are necessary in the environment, I'd suggest looking into forms of getting good IVs like breeding for them or RNG abuse. I know its a really daunting thing to come face to face with but if you really end up being interested in this whole thing, good luck to all your endeavors :)
  19. Sohryu

    Sohryu Be a Man!

    Sorry for not providing EV's...

    Latios should run 252 SpAtk/252 Speed/4 HP
    Flygon with 252 Atk/252 Speed/4 HP/SpDef
    Gliscor depends...of what set you pick for him, really. I'm not sure about him.

    And KillerDraco...well, i really misunderstood what he posted. He never said he doesn't want a Poison Heal Gliscor. I apologize.
    And yes; get one if you can. Its way better.
  20. Aura Sensei™

    Aura Sensei™ User Title

    Specs Latios is the best possible Latios, from experience in Competitive. Run Draco Meteor / Hp [Fire] / Psyshock / Surf. Use Akanjao's spread and a Timid nature.

    Which Ability does Gliscor have? If it's Poison Heal, you're much better off with a Stalling set along the lines of Toxic / Earthquake / Substitute / Protect. EV's should be 252 Hp / 168 Def / 92 Spe (iirc that's the common Spread.)

    One last thing; an Ice Type will tear your Team aprat. I'd suggest Flame Charge Heatran.

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