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The Burqa

Your negative view of their culture does not change the way they view the burqa. The people who choose to wear it view it as a symbol of dignity.

Assuming they all choose to wear it of course, and assuming they haven't essentially been brainwashed into believing its perceived virtues and other people's alleged licentiousness.
 
Who are you to judge whether or not a religion brainwashes their adherents? That cannot be quantified and cannot weigh on whether or not a government bans burqas. Let them be.
 
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Who are you to judge whether or not a religion brainwashes their adherents? Let them be.

I've openly said in this thread that if women choose to wear it they can. If that's not a case of "letting them be" then I don't know what is. However, if you're telling me to stay silent and not pass judgement on the many many problems with Islam, you can expect little more than a polite request to put a metaphorical finger to the lips of your keyboard.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
After thinking about it for some time, I have realized that there are some security threats. What if someone underage wants to go into a nightclub? They can just use the ID of an older person who wears a burqa and also has a similar height, skin color, and eye color to them.

...

...

Okay, let's think about this for a second.

You're concerned about a traditional Muslim going to a night club?

...

Yeah, because the bars and clubs I go to are FILLED with amish and Hasidic Jews.

[/end sarcasm]

Either way, the "security threats" in places that tend to be popular bar hopping areas are typically vandalism, littering and loitering, mugging, and in extreme cases, assault, battery, rape, and other violent crimes. Typically, those people are NOT wearing religious garb, but maybe that's just my observation.

Yeah patriarchal cultures are really big on granting their women rights and freedoms.

Cultural relativism is a very slippery slope.

Now wait a second. Who said anything about women and their rights? These women are part of a religion that they are voluntarily a part of. They see these religious garments as a sign of MODESTY, not a symbol of submission. These women (and the men as well) believe they are respecting what they see as their bodies, God's gift to them, by being modest around society.

And in the US and other western, first world countries, their religious and citiszen rights are protected. If for some reason an Islamic man/husband BECAME abusive to his wife or daughter, there are laws to deal with that (just as if a Hasidic Jew became abusive to his family, or a traditional baptist, and so on)

Again, I made a very important distinction between traditional sects of Islam and the RADICAL Islamic sects as practiced in some parts of the Middle East, where women ARE second class citizens.

And FINALLY, if this is just some trendy "Psh, organized religions sucks, rage against the machine, brah", well then you'll just have to learn that people may choose different lifestyles. Hell, someday, you might have a cubicle or desk next to someone who chooses to wear a burga. Try going up to that person and telling her that she's totally been brainwashed. If your first thought of a woman in a burga is "could be brainwashed", that is just as despciable of a thought as any racial stereotypes that have been perpetuated.

On another note, I think it's really interesting that Europe, having been around as a "civilized" part of the world longer than the Americas, is finally dealing with this type of racial and ethnic tension. In countries where ethnic diversity is defined by where the white people are from rather than skin color, Europe hasn't been a "melting pot" like the US has in terms of ethnic and cultural diversity. Clearly, with burqa bans and the Minaret ban in Sewitzerland, there are some growing pains and Europeans will have to deal with the cultural push and NOT give in to bigotry to make laws to prevent "those people" from peacefully living in Europe.

I've openly said in this thread that if women choose to wear it they can. If that's not a case of "letting them be" then I don't know what is. However, if you're telling me to stay silent and not pass judgement on the many many problems with Islam, you can expect little more than a polite request to put a metaphorical finger to the lips of your keyboard.

I've openly said in this thread that if black women choose to dress like ****s. If that's not a case of "letting them be" then I don't know what is. However, if you're telling me to stay silent and not pass judgement on the many many problems with black culture, you can expect little more than a polite request to put a metaphorical finger to the lips of your keyboard.
 
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kaiser soze

Reading ADWD
After thinking about it for some time, I have realized that there are some security threats. What if someone underage wants to go into a nightclub? They can just use the ID of an older person who wears a burqa and also has a similar height, skin color, and eye color to them.
Last time I checked the Quran prohibited alcohol, and the whole point of the Burqa is for women to not be treated as objects. Pretty sure this is isn't an issue.
 
After thinking about it for some time, I have realized that there are some security threats. What if someone underage wants to go into a nightclub? They can just use the ID of an older person who wears a burqa and also has a similar height, skin color, and eye color to them.

Start requiring thumbprints or alternate forms of ID or require them to show their face if they want entry. Don't ban burqas.

Also, what about beards? Should the Amish be forced to shave? They could secretly be plotting something against the state behind that mangled bush of treachery!
[img139]http://s3.media.squarespace.com/production/495122/8446086/production/495122/5767572/_HVQqyeQdVJc/SzxiOgbBKcI/AAAAAAAAAxo/zj5BJFZAOG8/s400/weirdAlAmish.jpg[/img139]
Would the people who are fine with banning burqas be fine with requiring all Amish to shave all the time because of the highly unlikely possibility that one Amish man may at some point do something illegal somewhere?

[edit]
Acutally, I meant that as a joke, but that got me thinking.
[img139]http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac290/mattj_pokemon/amishporn.jpg[/img139]
Would those who support the banning of Muslim burqas be equally inclined to support legislation that would have a similar effect on the Amish, or other people? Obviously, modesty means just as much to Amish women as it does to Muslim women. Would those of you who support the banning of burqas support a law that would force Amish women to walk around with their skirts lifted up?

I mean, they could be hiding like a WMD up there or something. We just can't know for sure unless we look.

Are you as willing to force Amish women to publicly shame themselves every day as you are conservative Muslim women?
 
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Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
Okay, let's think about this for a second.

You're concerned about a traditional Muslim going to a night club?

Yeah, because the bars and clubs I go to are FILLED with amish and Hasidic Jews.

[/end sarcasm]
I was trying to think of the most legitimate example possible for the dangers of the burqa. It's not my fault that a good reason to ban the burqa doesn't exist.
 
That isn't a problem with the burqa. That's a problem with a select sect of people raping women. Some men see short skirts as an excuse to rape women. You don't advocate banning all short skirts do you?

A lot of freaks will use any excuse to rape women and children, or men for that matter.

The key difference in your analogy is that a skirt is not a component of a religious doctrine as the burqa. The freaks are able to hide behind their "holier" position, which exerts great influence over their community and empowers them in a way women just wearing skirts can't. This is why Europe has seen a dramatic increase of rape occurring from mostly muslim immigrants from Africa and the Middle East, but not say those from East Asia or India. This creates the environment not just for the rapist, but for the religiously empowered gang of rapists. It's true, the burqa is not the issue. It is only a symptom of a larger problem. One which religion will always get exploited by the same group of lascivious groups of people regardless of their religion.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
A lot of freaks will use any excuse to rape women and children, or men for that matter.

The key difference in your analogy is that a skirt is not a component of a religious doctrine as the burqa. The freaks are able to hide behind their "holier" position, which exerts great influence over their community and empowers them in a way women just wearing skirts can't. This is why Europe has seen a dramatic increase of rape occurring from mostly muslim immigrants from Africa and the Middle East, but not say those from East Asia or India. This creates the environment not just for the rapist, but for the religiously empowered gang of rapists. It's true, the burqa is not the issue. It is only a symptom of a larger problem. One which religion will always get exploited by the same group of lascivious groups of people regardless of their religion.

Did Europe not previously have rape laws on the book?

I'd understand if, say, Islam was the preferred religion. Sometimes there are complaints about child abusers getting off lite when their kids die because they claim it's part of some faith healing Christian tradition in the US, christianity being, of course, the majority religion. Jonathan Turley, a noted legal and constitutional scholar, has written extensively on this subject at his blog.

But Islam is not the dominent religion in Europe. So why is there trouble prosecuting accused rapists now than say, 10 years ago?

Also, are rapes REALLY on the rise and is it disproportionately caused by recent immigrants?? I'm finding it hard to confirm that.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
I'd understand if, say, Islam was the preferred religion. Sometimes there are complaints about child abusers getting off lite when their kids die because they claim it's part of some faith healing Christian tradition in the US, christianity being, of course, the majority religion. Jonathan Turley, a noted legal and constitutional scholar, has written extensively on this subject at his blog.

Faith healing is something that deserves it's own debate thread. I'll give you the honors of making the thread, because you provided the link. Perhaps you can call it: The "miracle" of faith healing. The miracle is that it allows people to get away with murdering their children.
 

Gergovia

Banned
Your negative view of their culture does not change the way they view the burqa. The people who choose to wear it view it as a symbol of dignity.

"They aren't oppressed as long as they don't believe they are" is basically what you just said. Which is pretty stupid, tbh.
 

Gergovia

Banned
Would those who support the banning of Muslim burqas be equally inclined to support legislation that would have a similar effect on the Amish, or other people? Obviously, modesty means just as much to Amish women as it does to Muslim women. Would those of you who support the banning of burqas support a law that would force Amish women to walk around with their skirts lifted up?

That is the most grossly hideous and repulsive analogy I've ever read.

A) Amish folk don't go into public places airports or other high security public areas that have modern technology.

B) The Amish demographic poses zero terrorist threat to the U.S. government/soil. It never has.

C) Amish people dress modestly. They do not obcsure their face or identity. Beards make little difference in determining identity these days because of advanced computer technology. We can simulate what a person will look like without a beard. Can you make out facial structure with a burga? No. It's about identity. Then you go off about skirts, which was really silly. Wearing a skirt is clearly different than actually wearing what are basically drapes that mask not only your identity but your body structure even. Much easier to wrap a bomb in a burga then it is to straddle one under a skirt.
 

Jb

Tsun in the streets
It honestly should be banned in banks and airports and the like. When you go to the teller/whoever is there, you have to show I.D. I can't just walk in a bank, with a skimask thinking they will accept it assuming it was me.

It really is a safty hazard in some situations.
 

Calamity™

aka Lamia
Now wait a second. Who said anything about women and their rights? These women are part of a religion that they are voluntarily a part of. They see these religious garments as a sign of MODESTY, not a symbol of submission. These women (and the men as well) believe they are respecting what they see as their bodies, God's gift to them, by being modest around society.

Just wanted to make a small point by saying this isn't always the case. And to be honest, I'd also say that it's even less the case in the more recent years. A lot of children are forced into believing that their parent's religion is right and are essentially brainwashed. If you look into certain documentaries, there's always a huge point being made about how both Muslim men and women would not dare to do certain things because of the consequences and how their society would view them. This meaning that most have to put up with what their parents want them to be. I was watching a documentary about Homosexuality in Islam, but it can also be related to how women may be forced into wearing Burqas or Hijabs or whatever else Muslim people have to do within their societies.
Just to make it clear, I mentioned Islam, but I'm not singling them out. I believe that brainwashing children occurs in every religion and even with those who aren't religious.
 

kaiser soze

Reading ADWD
That is the most grossly hideous and repulsive analogy I've ever read.

A) Amish folk don't go into public places airports or other high security public areas that have modern technology.

B) The Amish demographic poses zero terrorist threat to the U.S. government/soil. It never has.

C) Amish people dress modestly. They do not obcsure their face or identity. Beards make little difference in determining identity these days because of advanced computer technology. We can simulate what a person will look like without a beard. Can you make out facial structure with a burga? No. It's about identity. Then you go off about skirts, which was really silly. Wearing a skirt is clearly different than actually wearing what are basically drapes that mask not only your identity but your body structure even. Much easier to wrap a bomb in a burga then it is to straddle one under a skirt.
I'm going to be frank, your post has a hint of bigotry. You're assuming certain religious/ethnic groups are more inclined to be terrorists than others merely by association. Less than two months ago the FBI arrested 7 Amish men who were charged with hate crimes. Some good examples of white terrorists: Timothy McVeigh (comitted the largest terrorist attack on US soil pre-9/11), the Provisional Irish Republican Army, Jared Lee Loughner (last year shot a US Representative and others at a political rally), and Anders Behring Breivik.
 

sizida

CoconutIsTheAnswer
hmm i can say this when america is saving iraq's butts but actually they should just leave them alone. it is like colonisation of a country. and as usual alot of rebellious people against their stay there. does it makes the life of citizens safer?

well this is what happen if you forcefully force a rule that defy their religion/culture. people will go against it.

in clothing wise, i guess they should just let the security people to see their face if they requested so for the security check and such, being in a public area is ok to be wearing like that. ( i seen those Muslim in my neighbourhood but we people are fine with it, just a little stare that's all.)

hey besides wikipedia is a bad referencing source since any people can edit the page.
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
Just wanted to make a small point by saying this isn't always the case. And to be honest, I'd also say that it's even less the case in the more recent years. A lot of children are forced into believing that their parent's religion is right and are essentially brainwashed. If you look into certain documentaries, there's always a huge point being made about how both Muslim men and women would not dare to do certain things because of the consequences and how their society would view them. This meaning that most have to put up with what their parents want them to be. I was watching a documentary about Homosexuality in Islam, but it can also be related to how women may be forced into wearing Burqas or Hijabs or whatever else Muslim people have to do within their societies.
Just to make it clear, I mentioned Islam, but I'm not singling them out. I believe that brainwashing children occurs in every religion and even with those who aren't religious.

I think this is an issue, but it's sort of beside the point. We shouldn't ban hijabs just so that kids/teenagers or whoever is being pressured to wear them won't have to wear them. That's sort of like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The probably more numerous adults who want to wear them would not be able to.

Brainwashing' might not be the right word, either. That is a rather loaded term that probably doesn't even apply literally. In seeking to free someone who has their ideas because they were 'brainwashed', any input, opinions, point of view that person happens to have are invalidated so someone else can judge what is in their best interest, which is rather ironic. It's actually a pretty good way of discrediting someone. It would also be weird to tell an adult that they are not allowed to wear something because while they think they want to wear it, they were actually just conditioned to want to wear it in their childhood.
 
Now wait a second. Who said anything about women and their rights? These women are part of a religion that they are voluntarily a part of.

Which in many cases they are born into. If this is the case, they are led to believe that anything but Islam is the wrong path. Especially because apostasy is punishable by death in Islamic law and culture. Do you know how much harder it is for a woman to divorce her husband under Islamic law? The religion was created precisely to enforce patriarchal culture.

They see these religious garments as a sign of MODESTY, not a symbol of submission.

Yeah but we all know that this claim is ********, and given that such recommendations often stem from the most oppressive, patriarchal cultures in the world, I'm willing to say there's a degree of forced compliance in many cases. Even if they do choose to wear it voluntarily, it shows remarkable disdain

These women (and the men as well) believe they are respecting what they see as their bodies, God's gift to them, by being modest around society.

Or, in many cases, they don't have a choice. I wonder how many women there will be on the streets of Tehran and Riyadh today with their faces and clothes visible?

And in the US and other western, first world countries, their religious and citiszen rights are protected.

Long may they be so. As, of course, is my legitimate right to call out the more oppressive aspects of said religion.

If for some reason an Islamic man/husband BECAME abusive to his wife or daughter, there are laws to deal with that.

What is this "law" you speak of?

Again, I made a very important distinction between traditional sects of Islam and the RADICAL Islamic sects as practiced in some parts of the Middle East, where women ARE second class citizens.

Radical aspects of Islam? The apostasy law is in the Hadith, hardly a minor Islamic text. Polygamy is pretty much encouraged in mainstream islamic texts. Admittedly it is by no means the law to wear the Burqa, but in a culture where the man's word carries so much more authority, is it really surprising that this is often the case? There is nothing radical about sexism in Islam, it's jsut par for the course.

And FINALLY, if this is just some trendy "Psh, organized religions sucks, rage against the machine, brah", well then you'll just have to learn that people may choose different lifestyles. Hell, someday, you might have a cubicle or desk next to someone who chooses to wear a burga. Try going up to that person and telling her that she's totally been brainwashed. If your first thought of a woman in a burga is "could be brainwashed", that is just as despciable of a thought as any racial stereotypes that have been perpetuated.

Well I wouldn't go up to her and tell her, but if the conversation arose, of course I would. What you're essentially saying here is that I have no right to criticise Islam. It is beyond criticism. Your last sentence is equally farcical.

I've openly said in this thread that if black women choose to dress like ****s. If that's not a case of "letting them be" then I don't know what is. However, if you're telling me to stay silent and not pass judgement on the many many problems with black culture, you can expect little more than a polite request to put a metaphorical finger to the lips of your keyboard.

This analogy fails on so many levels.
 
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Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
"They aren't oppressed as long as they don't believe they are" is basically what you just said. Which is pretty stupid, tbh.
If they choose to hide themselves, it's their choice. It only appears that they are being oppressed, because that's what you want to think.

What is this "law" you speak of?
What are you not understanding here? Do you think Muslims are exempts from the laws of a country or something?
 
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