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Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by GetInTheBagNebby_, Mar 27, 2017.

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  1. Spider-Phoenix

    Spider-Phoenix #ChespinGang

    I think Iris was a good character. And I'll always give her credit for catching her first pokémon with her own strenght. No capture by bonding, injurying or give away: she fought it with her strenght and get it.

    Max and Bonnie should have taken some notes :p
  2. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    (Anime) Iris was a character that had a lot of promise but ended up being a failure from a technical standpoint (and the writers could have easily averted this had they actually cared about her) but I can accept that a minority of people did enjoy her so she doesn't completely suck from an objective standpoint. I wouldn't use the word "hate" to describe my feelings towards the character; it's more like extreme disappointment due to how vast the disparity was between my expectations of her and how she turned out. If anything I'm ticked-off at the writers for how they messed up so badly when they had a character with so much potential.

    Sure you could say that most characters don't live up to initial expectations but again the disparity in the case of Iris (at least for me) is substantially greater than that in the case of any other main character in the series.
  3. Janovy

    Janovy Banned

    This is kinda ridiculous.

    From my perspective, writers cared more about Iris than some other characters. They gave her a much deeper and compelling backstory than most of the main characters in this anime have (some of them don't even have it at all).
  4. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    The executives running this show though it was a good idea to copy the OS. The problem with this is that Ash has already been to 4 regional Leagues before, so it didn't work.
    I dunno what the Hell TPC was thinking back then.
  5. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Yeah you can like her all you want, but you can't refute how crappy her treatment was when the writers couldn't be bothered to show progression for Iris's PRIMARY INITIAL GOAL of evolving Axew or even give an explanation as to why Axew didn't evolve throughout BW and the special when it was explicitly shown early on that Axew wanted to evolve. Iris just comes off as a looser who can't even show significant progress in a rudimentary goal like evolving a Pokémon that wants to evolve. Her having a backstory is irrelevant to this fact.

    Also let's face it; most people flat out don't like Iris. I agree that this in and of itself doesn't make her a good or bad character but her relative unpopularity is still a factually true claim.
  6. AshxSatoshi

    AshxSatoshi Ice Aurelia

    Since when was evolution her primary goal? What anime are you watching because even her elder of the village said "evolution isn't everything" and that she raised Axew well. Not mention her Axew learned Giga impact and Outrage two powerful and took on Cynthia's Garchomp. Progress towards her goal was almost deafeating Drayden in a gym battle and being offered to take over the gym whenever she wants. Traveling to Johto to fight Clair... nearly beating her. And using her 6th sense for dragons to handle the Gible that was causing trouble in Blackthorn. Those are just few examples of goal progression. You implying because she couldn't fully complete her goal makes her a "loser" is horrible considering it's basically calling Serena a loser for not winning the master class showcase and Dawn and May for winning the Grand festival
  7. Spyro39

    Spyro39 Well-Known Member

    I cannot take you seriously every time you spout the same BS argument that Iris never progressed her goal solely because she never evolved her Axew and ignore any character development and goal progression she had in BW. That's like saying May and Dawn are "losers" because they never made progress towards their goal by not winning the Grand Festival, or Serena for not winning the Master Class, or most importantly, saying Ash never made progress towards his goal of Pokemon Master by not winning a single Pokemon League.

    Did you not read Janovy's post in page 6 that thoroughly explained how she progressed towards her goal of Dragon Master throughout her journey or did you refute every single one of his points? If you're still in denial about her character development and goal progression in BW, then you seriously know nothing about Iris.
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  8. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Both of you are using faulty analogy. May, Serena and Dawn did show progress because they were better than most of the other contenders in their field. Misty showed progress by becoming a GL which is a step towards becoming an E4.

    Usually when a Pokémon doesn't evolve, it's because it doesn't want to or at least its opinion is left vague when it comes to evolution. For Axew; it EXPLICITLY wanted to evolve early on. From here the writers either at least evolve it into Fraxure to show significant progress (which they could have done in the special if not BW) or give us an explanation as to why Axew hasn't evolved (like maybe it changed its mind but in this case they need to tell us that). They did neither which results in grabage writing and ends up reflecting poorly on Iris. You know you suck when you can't evolve a Pokémon that EXPLICITLY wants to evolve period.
  9. AshxSatoshi

    AshxSatoshi Ice Aurelia

    Serena's Braxien never reached its final form despite being open to evolution (I'm assuming it is since it evolved once) so she never progressed as a character? The writers had plenty of opportunities to give Serena a Delphox yet.... Also how does it reflect bad on Iris for terrible writing? It's been showed that her Axew is powerful and even somewhat on par with Cynthia's Garchomp despite being a first stage Pokemon. Also Serena only was "better" than her fellow competers because she was written that way from that start. Becoming a gym leader is not a step to being an E4 I doubt all of the E4 started off as gym leaders. But let's try your logic... are you forgetting Iris was offered to becoming the last gym leaders of Unova by the gym leader herself? Not forced to do it like some others...
  10. Janovy

    Janovy Banned

    It...it just had a dream.

    Why are you making up these rules that Iris should have followed to be a good character in your eyes? LOL

    The lone fact that you are comparing her goal to Dawn or Serena's goal shows how biased you are.
  11. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Given we already saw a Fraxure during BW, couldn't they just have had her Axew be a Fraxure during the special?
  12. potat_lasaro

    potat_lasaro I'm kind of alive

    You do remember that Iris's original quest as handed to her by the village elder was to go on a quest and raise Axew into a strong Haxorus, right? So in that sense, Iris never really grew in that challenge at all since Axew barely grew. Yes, by the end it wasn't the timid baby or weakling it was originally, but a lot of the training was wasted. For example, Axew learns Outrage miraculously since the writers needed a way to get Axew a win against Luke. They never use the move again (unless my memory is off. If so, I apologize). Then, against Cynthia it once more learns a powerful move in Giga Impact only to then not use it again or even train the move. So, you can't say she really progressed in her original goal.

    However, Iris did improve over time as a Dragon Master as shown by bonding with Dragonite and being able to help it and then calm it down. Not only that, but she managed to get Dragonite to trust her.

    Though even with that, one cannot argue that the plot bended to allow Iris an easier time. Examples would include the fact that Excadrill was revealed to be disobedient and yet it had no build up to becoming loyal and overcoming his depressed state. It just happened a few appearances later (all of which he would just lay there doing nothing unless attacked first) and after losing a battle with Georgia they became partners again. Now, they could have done something similar to Charizard where Ash actually tried to use him over and over in battle to get him to listen and even then it took him staying up all night keeping Charizard warm for him to listen to Ash.

    Another example was mentioned above with Axew in the case of him always learning a new, powerful move just to do well in a battle. Granted that he had no shot against Cynthia, but it still learned Giga Impact with no reason.

    Next would be Emolga. The electric type never developed from her capture to the end of the series. It stayed the same way always trying to manipulate a situation to better herself. Yes, she looked out for Axew, but she also stayed lazy and gave Iris hard times.

    So, in sense, Iris wasn't the worst developed but she wasn't the greatest either. She had a lot of defining moments but also had a lot of moments given to her without any complaints.

    Either way, Iris is a highly divisive character where some will argue she developed well and others won't. But, objectively speaking you can say she was average compared to others. She developed better than AG/DP Brock, Max, Cilan, Tracey and Misty.
  13. Janovy

    Janovy Banned

    Iris' goal is to become a Dragon Master and Axew evolving is just a part of that goal.

    I've said it before. All the other girls like May, Dawn or Serena were not allowed to reach their goal at the first try, and people forgave them for that because that is how writers do things. But suddenly Iris is judged harshly because SHE did not achieve one of her goals at the first try. What kind of double standard is that?

    Iris had a lot of growth in terms of her Dragon Master goal, but claiming she didn't progress at all because Axew did not evolve is just foolish and unfair.
  14. potat_lasaro

    potat_lasaro I'm kind of alive

    Did you not read what I wrote? I never said she never progressed in her Dragon Master goal! I said that she never progressed in her original goal GIVEN TO HER BY THE ELDER to raise Axew into a Haxorus. And I never mentioned anything about completing a goal but instead advancing in it! Outside of Dragonite Iris barely raised any Dragons and even then she only had the disobedience issues to work out.

    And second, I meant her character overall when it came to development not just her goal. If you read the entire response you would have realized that.
  15. AshxSatoshi

    AshxSatoshi Ice Aurelia

    When was it established that the elder asked Iris to evolve Axew? Maybe it was implied she wanted Iris to evolve him but in the anime it's been established that the only reason Iris went on a journey was because school was not working out for her and Drayden and the Elder thought a journey would be better so she could inherit the gym.
  16. potat_lasaro

    potat_lasaro I'm kind of alive

    Back in episode 9. Iris explains that all young trainers from her village are given an Axew to begin their quest towards a Dragon master and the proof of their growth towards it is by having their Axew evolve into a Haxorus.
  17. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    Axew didn't evolve solely because Fraxure is hard to animate and Axew was a highly marketable Pokemon at the time. It's the reason why a Pokemon like Oshawott and Snivy didn't evolve. Iris is already raising Axew by training him, working through his problems, giving him a chance to develop by using him more often, and taking care of him. It is Axew's dream to evolve into Haxorus but it is Iris' main goal in life is to understand the hearts of Dragons which is a Dragon Master. Evolving Axew is just a small part of her goal but she also hindered his development by having Ash and Dento go easy on him when Axew learns more better under pressure.

    Iris has made progress on her goal. It's something that can't be taught in school which is why she gets close and personal with most Pokemon she meets by taking them head on, using her instinct and words to touch heart. Being Dragon Master isn't gathering how many ribbons or keys she gets but rather, gaining knowledge on what each Dragon she touches tick. Kind of like how Ash is so passionate about bonding with each Pokemon he befriends and meets.

    I think a task that only a Dragon Master would be called up for is if there was a rampaging Dragon Pokemon and no one could stop it or healing an illness a trainer with a Dragon type Pokemon has.
  18. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Given we already saw a Fraxure in the anime, what prevented them from having Axew be a Fraxure in the special?
  19. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    She caught a Gible didn't she? Even though Axew has had learned new moves and did develop somewhat, I don't think he's ready to evolve yet. And doesn't it take Dragon types a while to evolve in the games? I feel like they're keeping Axew an Axew until either a time skip/cameo or whenever they feel like evolving him because for now, him staying in Iris' hair is equivalent to Pikachu holding onto Ash's shoulder.
  20. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Axew evolves at level 38, but the anime doesn't care much about levels.
    Noibat evolves at like level 48.
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